OT: Star Trek Nemesis

[Magnum357]

Well, I think its good to hear that at least the possibility of other movies is still hopeful. I just hope if they do continue on the Star Trek Saga, plan it right and basically forget about Voyager at least. Their best bet would be to relate any future movies to DS9 and TNG. I guess we will have to wait and see, but another movie probably will not happen for at least a few years. Wasn't Inserection released in 1998?

Hey gregebowman,

About your ST2 question, I do agree, that is sort of a problem about the young people. The only theory I could think of is maybe that the entire crew of the sleeper ship were Genetically enhanced by age too. Maybe they could live longer than normal humans. I know, sounds like a Trekkie theory to explain another inconsistancy, but I have no clue what other theory explains the young followers of Kahn.

P.S. I could be wrong about this, but I heard that in ST2, their was an entire chapter of how Kahns crew took over the Reliant. I heard it was a lot of hand to hand combat and killing. I guess they cut it from the final cut because it ran too long. On the other hand, maybe they cut it because it was rediculas because even the Reliant had a heavily armed security force. Unless they were caught comepletely by suprised, Genetic Enhancements wouldn't protect you from Phasers.

[ September 06, 2002, 07:22: Message edited by: Magnum357 ]

[Major Tom]

You didn't actually get to see everyone in the TOS episode that was supposed to be from Khan's sleeper ship. So there 'might' have been some younger siblings or child prodegies (these genetically enhanced leaders probably wanted genetically enhanced successors). Yet this might also be 'filler'. Checkov was not a part of the Star Trek cast when Khan was originally in TOS, but for some reason Checkov and Khan knew eachother in Star Trek II.

These plot holes are technically small (you would really have to know your stuff to see the holes, as I had no problem with the movie until someone told me about all of the little details). When you compare it to the plot holes done recently, Star Trek II's are more explainable, as they only affected certain small bits of plot and diologue. The fact that some of Khan's followers were young, and Checkov knew Khan when he should not have does not really detract from Star Trek, as they are just minor points.

What gets me about DS9 is that it does not appear to look planned. I kept on seeing changes done to improve Ratings (adding Worf when TNG ended), having Sisco shave his head and get that gotee to look tougher. To me, the big Dominion war looks like they could not think of a way to improve Ratings, and decided to go the war route. The first encounter with the Dominion was good, when that Galaxy Class ship was destroyed. However, soon after they got the Defiant (like the Whitestar from B5) and suddenly there were hundreds of starfleet, klingon and romulan spaceships blowing up hundreds of dominion and cardassian ships. Star Trek was not about hundreds of ships fighting hundreds more, battles were usually between, at most, a few dozen. The more battles, and the more ships involved, the less personal the fighting got. Previously, to defeat an enemy ship took cunning, time and effort (it was a big deal to come up against a single Romulan warbird). DS9 made destroying any ship common place, and really got boring as all of their battles appeared to be EXACTLY the same.

B5's battles were interesting, as they dealt with different opponents, different tactics and such. The big battle between the Shadow, Vorlons and the Alliance was reminiscent of a typical DS9 batte, but this was B5's high-point in the war, and of course it must be big. Most other B5 battles were between handfulls of ships, where killing just one Shadow vessel was an amazing feat.

DS9 and VOY just ruined my impressions on what Star Trek was. Star Trek had wars (all the way back to TOS), but these were not the all consuming plot driver that DS9 got into and VOY jumped into as well. Also, half of their plots were the very outdated 'it was just a dream and never happened' with all of the alternate-dimension (they stole this from TOS and beat it until it was as boring as the borg) and time travelling that was commonplace.

[thorfrog]

That's too bad you feel that way. I thought the Dominion War idea was excellent. It brought my attention back to the show. I've always wanted to see what large fleet actions would look like in Star Trek. Those Last few seasons really shined. Besides, I thought the show show was headed for a large war confrontation when it started.

[gregebowman]

Well, I liked seeing the space battles. to me, it spiced up the show. I know Roddenberry wouldn't have liked them, but it's neat seeing ships blowing each other up from time to time. My only thought on this is that where are the Organians in the 24th century? Like they don't exist at that point in time, or are they having their own conflict with the Q or the Prophets that allows all of this conflict to go on?

[Magnum357]

Good question gregebowman,

I've wondered that myself. Maybe your right that Q, the Prophets, or something else is fighting against the Organains and they have their own problems right now. Hey, why couldn't Gods fight amongs themselves!

I agree too about DS9. I thought it was a good idea for DS9 to introduced the Dominion War. Granted, Gene most likely would not have approved the idea, but like I said before, Wars have a huge impact on how society and culture are made in the world. Also, DS9 did approach issues that Star Trek wouldn't go into. Like for example the Vulcan killing people with a Gun and Dax had to think like a killer. Granted, sort of a copy of Silence of the Lambs, but I find it just rediculas that people in the Federation (or especially earth) don't kill each other anymore (to me, thats a Rodenberry Fantasy). And I really liked the Episode where Sisko sets up the Romulans to enter the War. Even in the star Trek Universe, their has to shades of Grey.

The Battles where neat to me too. Ok, Major Tom has a point that ship versus ship combat gave Star Trek its own flare in TOS an the Movies, but when war occurs, its just not common for ships to spread out all over the place. In wars, I would a have to imagine Fleet versus Fleet battles are the norm. Ok, ships were getting destroyed fairly easily in the show, but its not like the battles seen showed everything. I'm sure the Space Battle Feilds where tens of thousands of Kiliometers wide and when several ships concentrate fire on one ship, chances are the one ship is going to get hammered easily.

[QuarianRex]

The one thing that always got me about Trek, compared to other sci-fi, was that there were never any consequences, nothing had an effect. In TOS and TNG the crew faced invincible foes and world changing problems every episode and yet solved them in such a way that they always broke even, nothing in the universe actually changed.

Granted, this fit well with the utopian starfleet image, the enlightened olympians handing down judgement and meddling with mere mortals as they see fit, but is it human? I know that the idea was to show the best that humans could be, but it ignored the fact that not everyone will agree with you.

This is why I liked DS9 so much. Here starfleet had to deal with equals who completely disagreed with them, instead of merely handling their inferiors (whether it was technologically, intellectually, or morally inferior). DS9 showed that even in utopia there are those who are willing to take what you hold dear.

[disabled]

Originally posted by Hadrian Tyrael S. Aventine:
Just to jump back to the Star Trek two lot whole of chekov, how do we know chekov wasn't on the ship when Kahn was around (maybe a scene that we didn't see). Sulu started as a science office on the ship before becoming the helmsman, same with other cast members that came on after the first episodes were made.

Good point, this could very well be the truth of the matter. While not canon, it fits the bill

[ June 16, 2003, 05:17: Message edited by: General Talashar ]

[Magnum357]

Good point Hadrian. Who is to say that Chekov wasn't doing some Academy inturnship work on the Enterprise? If I recall, Cadets are required to serve about a starship for a year or two before they graduate right? Maybe Chekov was on board when Kahn tried to take over but was in a non-senior officer role. He did have Security experience, maybe he started out with the Security detachment on board Enterprise. This would work out nice too because Kahn did try to forcably take over Enterprise. Maybe he was part of the Security Forces involved to defeat Kahn!

[geoschmo]

Maybe Checkov was working the night shift that season.

[Urendi Maleldil]

What ever happened to Special Agent Gary Seven and his kind? His super high-tech superiors seem to have disappeared.