Mod: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

while an additional item exists that allows the use of Water only, to also get units on land, but at a higher cost in path level and research.

Not possible with the modding tools we got. Aquatic troops are stuck in the seas.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

I happen to like that aspect of the game. I'm in favor of maintaining it, since it keeps the oceans mysterious and threatening to land-dwellers, since on land you never really see what's going on down there, while at the same time making aquatic Nations entirely different from land or amphibious Nations.

Actually, that's the very thing I'm trying to fix - land and sea is just way too much apart. Why? Think of it this way. The UW nations aren't really playing the game, instead they are stuck into this "mini-game" of UW dominance. It doesn't really matter how this "mini-game" plays out, since the winning player is 95% of the time, decided on land.

Land players can enter the mini-game, but it's really really difficult and usually really not worth the bother. The players in the mini-game can try to get to the real game on land, but none of the sea nations can really compare or manage any kind land dominance, they are just too handicapped. (the exception of MA/LA R'lyeh, though)

Besides, all the fun of the MP comes from interacting with players. What's the point of making it nigh-impossible to interact with some players?

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

When a powerful unit from the sea manages to climb onto the shore, and starts wreaking havoc, it's an extraordinary event. I don't mind if it happens more often than it currently does--and I don't mind if it should happen more often--but I don't want the status quo to be entirely shattered.

That's a good thematic standpoint, but this is a gameplay improvement mod. I want to keep things as close to vanilla as possible, but there just has to be some sacrfices.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

I happen to believe the Devs had a purpose in doing things the way they did them, and even though their understanding of balancing apparently just isn't complete in terms of gameplay, the way they've set things up has created an ambiance in the game that I think is important, even vital.

I'm all for modding the hell out of the game, 9 ways from Sunday, but I still want the spirit of the game as it comes out of the box to be preserved, and I really feel that this is a piece of that, however small.

I admit that KO and JK are really bigger men than I am, and that dom3 is a masterpiece of genius minds. But they are just men, not gods. They can make mistakes. AotF as A1W1 is one of them. I'll explain it more in detail below this post.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

Aquatic Nations, after all, already have their own set of advantages. Making land easy to get to just erodes away at the whole idea of playing an aquatic Nation. With the possible exception of Hinnom, I don't believe there's a single EA Nation that's more powerful than Oceania, except for the fact that they're almost entirely aquatic. They possess the single best Sacred recruitables in the game, pound for pound, along with all their other advantages. Give them the ability to forge endless cheap Amulets of the Fish, without requiring air magic, and I really believe it could break their balance, giving them the potential to turn into another Hinnom.

EA Oceania, another Hinnom? Seriously?

No really, I mean are you really serious? Are you 100% sure that you want to stand behind that statement?

I just want to be sure before I post my intese rant about how EA Oceania sucks major balls. I'd also like you to specify if you are talking about UWGIM version of EA Oceania, or the vanilla one. (trust me, big difference)

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

Maybe not as bad, but still unbalanced, and potentially very bad. Imagine self-healing heavily blessed sacred calvalry commanders with magic weapons that can strike at any water or coastal area almost at will, and then retreat to near-complete safety.

You can't bring KotD's to land. There is no way to do that.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

But maybe I'm wrong. How about some actual arguments against what I'm espousing?

1) Air gems are really rare find underwater. This is bad, because it makes your ability to forge this item base on dumb luck (=very bad gameplay element). I've often had over 12 water provinces with 0 air gem income. Astral is also a rare find, which makes alchemizing air gems really, really painful.
2) EA R'lyeh. The nation just has to have access to that item in order to have any chance in winning the game. Reguring you to spend valuable pretender points in taking air magic and then using even more valuable pretender turns to search air sites and to forge a ****ty items is just absurd. Note that you do all these ridicilious things just to act as any other nation, there is no real subjective benefit to you by doing these things.
3) The air reguirement is non-thematic. The amulet just creates a bubble of water around you. Why would you need air magic to do that?

I have tons of other reasons, but I really don't have the time to list them all.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

For that matter, you could add an even cheaper (as far as paths and research go) forgeable item-a helmet for instance-that did exactly what the Amulet of the Fish does, that required Earth 1, Air 1, Water 1, and represented a sortof reverse diving helmet. Make it a minor (Const 0) item that costs 5 Earth gems, and it will make Earth gems more interesting for aquatic Nations.

Maybe you could even add an item that requires Nature 2, Water 2. Armour maybe, akin to the Shambler skin. It could compete with the AOTF in the lesser forgeable item category, and cost 5 Nature and 5 Water gems. That would make it an option for Oceania, allowing them a more expensive but easier to reach option to get on land a little earlier, without breaking balance.

Nothing you mention is actaully doable. I can't copy items (so basically, AotF is the only land breathing item, ever) and neither can I make a item that reguires three paths to forge.

Also, if you are really bothered about making AotF cost W1 to forge, you should likely try to argument in the CBM 1.6 thread, since it now does the exact same change (and is leagues above the popularity of this mod).

If you were talking about SP, you are free to alter your own version of the mod to keep the item as it is. As a fellow modder, that shouldn't prove difficult for you.