Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Nightfall

Junk compared to what, Tarts and Chayots/Seraphs, which both require a much more massive amount of investment in research and boosters. Gems used directly in the summon are only one part of the cost of a strategy shift.

I didn't say this, but nice strawman, and my comparison was between vanila and CBM(with EDM). I think you'll have a hard time making the case that a QoW is stronger than a grendelkin in any situation other than where you need a high attack, but then that isn't an equivalent comparison anyway, you need to compare 1.5 grendelkin to a QoW. Sure the underwater regen on QoW can be great, but they don't really have enough hp to leverage it.

I was responding to Executor about the elemental royalty, not you. And you don't seem to know what a Strawman actually is. He did specifically advance the claim that elemental royalty don't see play/get rushed because of EDM. That is absolutely false. Elemental royalty faded from play shortly after gemgens were made unique, which was *almost a year* before EDM was created. So the facts do not support Executor's claim that Elemental Royalty suffered due to EDM - they were already virtually unplayed before EDM was ever created.

Once again your setting up a straw man. I used that comparison only to refute the inference that it was ridiculous that great kraken were better than other summon spells with similiar requirements.

All that is required to prove I'm wrong is to pick a spell and put forward the case that it better, I'm open to being convinced, but insults aren't going to do it.

Seriously, you don't know what a Straw Man is... I don't have to create weak positions to argue against - you created the position yourself. Its not a strawman if you actually argued it!

You specifically advanced the position that Sea King's Court doesn't see play because of EDM, or more appropriately, that SKC was weak compared to GKraken. Sea King's Court has *always* been a bad spell. Why would you ever use it over almost 2 Streams from Hades (you wouldn't). So its *not a useful comparison* at all. Your own argument fails because you chose a craptastic spell.

I don't have to disprove anything. That's not how argument works. You are making a positive claim and thus you have to prove it.

But if you really want counter-examples to your general position:

I did specifically note that Streams from Hades still sees play. (It has useful path requirements for bootstrapping into D, for example).

I might also note that Hidden in Snow is better than the same number of gems spent on Krakens. In fact, the only EDM summon I don't routinely prefer HiS against is Wendigos, who may be a little too good for their price. But I use both of them, so maybe Wendigo are about right. I also prefer both to Grendelkin (who, being without magic, I don't find very useful).

I might note that the same number of gems in Manifest Vitriol are better than Krakens, and probably better than Grendelkin.

I might note the same number of gems in Wolven Winter, given the right circumstances (circumstances you can arrange by using chill aura units or thugs), is superior to Krakens.

I would rather forge Bottles of Living Water than summon Krakens. Or boots of quickness. Or frost brands. Or several other magic items.

I might note that Krakens are considered unplayably weak right now by the people who are actually good at the game. They get too few paths, and those paths tend to be really short, so they aren't any good as mages. And they aren't that good as thugs either (insufficiently many slots, too many weaknesses). And they aren't cheap enough or mobile enough to qualify as a budget thug. The only thing EDM krakens have *ever* been useful for was breaking into blood magic during the incarnations they had guaranteed blood picks.

In short, Krakens are junk compared to all the uses water gems have historically been *actually used for* by experienced players. That SKC compares badly to Krakens is mostly evidence of just how bad SKC is.

Edit: I suppose now you're going to shift goalposts on me and require me to demonstrate old spells for another path of magic that are still viable... Well, go ahead, which path or EDM summon would you like me to handle next?