Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

[llamabeast]

Turn 20? Which chassis are you thinking of? That's pretty early.

[Nightfall]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

Turn 20? Which chassis are you thinking of? That's pretty early.

An awake sage plus capital mages can open level six in a school of magic by about turn 16 (Depending on nation).

If your capital income then matches what you want to summon your golden.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Nightfall

An awake sage plus capital mages can open level six in a school of magic by about turn 16 (Depending on nation).

If your capital income then matches what you want to summon your golden.

So.. if you're Abysia with a very focused research strategy you could have early Zmeys? With no gear? I'm... not really that impressed.

You do realize Zmeys lose to skellie spam without a RoR and some sort of reinvigoration, right?

Being able to pull something awesome out early is the whole point of an early research strategy. I don't think a turn 20 naked zmey is really all that more awesome than kitted Eriu thugs by turn 10...

[Nightfall]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

So.. if you're Abysia with a very focused research strategy you could have early Zmeys? With no gear? I'm... not really that impressed.

Doesn't have to be that heavily focused, and why would you deploy them naked unless it's appropriate to do so. It takes a whole extra 1-2 turns to research construction 2 for some basic gear.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

You do realize Zmeys lose to skellie spam without a RoR and some sort of reinvigoration, right?

Fire shield works pretty well to, but I'm pretty sure you already knew that.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Being able to pull something awesome out early is the whole point of an early research strategy. I don't think a turn 20 naked zmey is really all that more awesome than kitted Eriu thugs by turn 10...

I agree that the awe on Sidhe Lords (Was that Eriu as well or just TNN?) was also a ridiculously bad call, but that's not relevant to the discussion at hand.

Also while Zmeys are certainly the most blatant issue at Conjuration 6, I intentionally didn't limit it to them.

I'm starting to think that a big part of llamabeast's problem is the fact that some people are more invested in finding and using the exploits to notch up a win or two than giving him good feedback.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Nightfall

Doesn't have to be that heavily focused, and why would you deploy them naked unless it's appropriate to do so. It takes a whole extra 1-2 turns to research construction 2 for some basic gear.

Const 2 does not get you RoR, iirc. Nor does a research blitz get you the necessary gems to build the gear you need. How many nations can you name that can have 30+f by turn 20 and also enough n and probably e,s to forge the necessary gear to make it really good *while* doing a research rush. And the mages to forge that gear.

Fire shield works pretty well to, but I'm pretty sure you already knew that.

We were talking about Zmeys, right? Fireshield? (honestly confused, my 1.92 Zmeys don't have that).

Zmey are also weak to archers, especially xbows.

I agree that the awe on Sidhe Lords (Was that Eriu as well or just TNN?) was also a ridiculously bad call, but that's not relevant to the discussion at hand.

Also while Zmeys are certainly the most blatant issue at Conjuration 6, I intentionally didn't limit it to them.

I'm starting to think that a big part of llamabeast's problem is the fact that some people are more invested in finding and using the exploits to notch up a win or two than giving him good feedback.

I wasn't referring to Ri with awe. Vanilla sidhe lords with brand and vine shield.

What else at research level 6 would you like to talk about?

Wendigo? Needs at least 14? turns to mature, 7 if its in battles every turn (although its going to have to piggy back your army for much of those).

Roc? Not a very effective solo thug. I mean, sure, it can raid light PD... but what can't?

Shishi? Honestly not that good and very easy to counter. People had a big hardon for them when they were first released, and now you don't see that many of them - they just don't actually perform against any real opposition. They have one real use - anti-thug/SC against people using demon/undead thugs and SCs.

Krakens? lolz. If you wasted your time beelining enchantment over conjuration underwater, be prepared to lose. (And I don't mean to conjuration UW EDM summons - since i don't think there are any - I mean to Shark Attack, a vanilla spell.)

[Nightfall]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Nor does a research blitz get you the necessary gems to build the gear you need.

I usually prefer to play luck, because I find it more fun, having gems for minor kit isn't usually an issue.

[Nightfall]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Krakens? lolz. If you wasted your time beelining enchantment over conjuration underwater, be prepared to lose. (And I don't mean to conjuration UW EDM summons - since i don't think there are any - I mean to Shark Attack, a vanilla spell.)

While rushing Krakens would admittedly be very situational, the potential problem isn't with underwater nations, it's with nations that already have a large benefit from going skelly spam and/or gift of health early. Both of which just happen to combine really well with an early kraken or two.