On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat

[Huzurdaddi]

If you are giving the Vampire queen earth magic there is no need for armor, just research alteration 2/3 and cast stoneskin/ironskin before attacking for 15 or 20 protection. With earth2 you can cast earth might too which is nice to do some more damage and thereby more hp back from the lifedrain.

Indeed I so cast stoneskin/ironskin. Great little spell. And earth might adds to her strength which is nice.

However I find that I can forge the armor with alchemy about the same time that I get quickness/stoneskin. And then I am ready to go, and you protection is near 30. That makes it quite difficult for indeps to do any damage at all.

The low hitpoints would normally be very risky since she can die quick even with lifedrain and regen, but with immortality and flying she can just try attacking again the next turn.

I find this of limited use early on since the spell power is just not there. Maybe once you get way up the tech chart it becomes possible but that is a long time to wait!

I can have Alt 3, Enc 1 (maybe 2)... and 2 Ice swords...

That is a lot of research for turn 5 I think it may be possible for turn 6 (which means attack on turn 7). I have not played R'lyeh but that seems like a lot of research (considering that you lose 2 mage-turns forging).

Thus: (Ouickness)(Body Ethereal)(Personal Luck) (Breath of Winter)

A fine list of spells (especially Breath of Winter). Hard to pull off in the ocean though. Once you reach land you may indeed be an SC though. You do accumulate afflictions though. The VQ does not.

regeneration will be there next turn...

So you will be taking nature as well? What are your scales and what are your paths? Having astral is a big hole in a SC due to magic duel. If you astral is not above 6 people can send cheap casters at you (I hope that the die is not open ended in magic duel ... but I don't know, if it is you are never safe, that's horrible!).

VQ's are great, but I don't think they're as uber as they're made out to be.

I don't know about them being uber since that is ill defined. I do think that they are the best early game super combatant. And it's shocking to me. Like I said due to her low HP I dismissed her at 1st.

astral shield soon after

That is one sick spell I have to say. Almost makes me want to take astral on an SC. Almost!

add a Horror Helmet and

Don't you already have like horror +15 or something silly like that?! How much do you need

Don't forget about the Earth Mother. Some of the Titan-style pretenders are reasonably effective in the early game as well, depending on forging and research.

Yes I like anything with trample! I have not tried her in a while though I found her of less effectiveness than I had expected. I should try her again to see if with what I now know (or think that I know!) if she performs better. The lack of flying will hurt though.

But I imagine somebody who's familiar with a Nataraja SC, could get them fully equiped in a similar amount of time...

20 water. That's a good amount. Going to be hard to get that *really* early for most nations (hello atlantis).

The Bulls are nearly unstopable beasts with only Enchantment 2 researched.

Enchantment or alteration? I guess the regen would really help him. I usually find that Alteration is the SC line of choice. But given his magic (and the silly cost of other lines for him) I guess it makes sense.

To me, effectively battling Indie Str 6+, is not much of a challenge... tons of pretenders with a little research or a few items can tear through indies.

I disagree. Against high strength independents I find that all pretenders need some help, it's just a matter of how much help, and that translates into how many turns. And I find that the VQ wins that race. And in some cases by a wide margin.

So when I look at a SC, I look at how effective they'll be against other SCs. Which is where the VQ seems really lacking to me... 23 HP, 0 base protection ...

Certianly. And this is not her strong suit (she's not bad against most, but against some she may have problems). But this thread is about the early use of pretenders in combat. And it opened my eyes to the VQ (thanks all!).