Experimental Game - Outofthelab

[Squirrelloid]

Well, its here because my comments are pertinent to the combination of game settings + mod effects, not just mod effects in isolation. Some of them certainly do apply as such though.

Originally Posted by Illuminated One

b) Cost of research is based on the status/accessibility of the mages
Kailasa has a caste system with the mages in the highest caste - you don't expect them to work for a peasant's wage
In Ulm mages are distrusted yet plentyful because of the widespread superstition. A shaman could just a wise man or woman brewing potions (oh god, this is RPG talk, isn't it?) or improving their tribesmens' weapons without demanding much except a place by the fire and a beer.

Of course this is subject to interpretation (and I've used that to boost or penalize some nations were I felt more free to interpret) and the list isn't set in stone. It's more a sketch with which I intended to playtest things out.
If it favors some nations, so what? Vanilla isn't excactly balanced, too, and the winners are not generally feared as uber rush nations. Some of the loosers (Atlantis, Yomi, Rlyeh, Tir, Niefel) trouble me, too, and if anything turns out to be out of balance I'll try to fix that, although I'd rather give it a try before deciding.

Here's the thing - yes, Kailasa is a Caste system, but (and correct me if i'm wrong) - my interpretation of Hindu castes has it that while the religious caste is at the top, they don't collect that much of the society's wealth (the warrior caste does). And in the case of EA Kailasa, the deific commanders are hardly going to care about base mortal currency. Also, despite being nominally Hindu, the mages have a decidedly buddhist feel, which means they'd tend towards asceticism - even more reason why they aren't expensive to maintain.

Caste system doesn't necessarily make a statement about who has all the money (although one of the elite castes is going to end up with it - in this case its almost certainly the warrior caste, which is near the top), it makes a statement about who can fulfill which roles, who can marry whom, and how that society values those roles. Kailasa's top caste being apparently ascetic mystics underscores this point - they are reverred by their society but it seems out of flavor to say they demand large cash rewards for their role.

About upkeep issues

Well, lets suppose I took a lower upkeep (say 1000) for the late game and higher gold settings. Let's say you're getting 6000 gold = 4500 gold netto, give or take a few, so you are recruiting 10 mages and 200 troops each turn. I want to get away from mage and troop spamming and this isn't really it. I don't think it really undermines bad scale strategies, in fact I've been always thinking the opposite way - the higher the gold the more good scales pay of and vice versa.
I can see your point about early problems, though, and have updated it to 60 gp upkeep.

Lets run with this idea of 250 gold for 8 RPs is standard for good researchers for a moment.

Turns.......Good.......Upkeep.......#Researcher Equiv
1...........200..........0............NA
2 to 11.....80...........60...........10
12 to 23....140..........200..........17.5
24 to 35....200..........600..........25
36 to 48....270..........1000.........33.75
49+.........350..........1500.........43.75

Ok, first of all, we have to conceed that turn 1 is a special case with no good analog.

We're also going to have to conceed that, if we stick with the research progression you've outlined, you're underpaying early.

Turns.....#Mages.....Mages Actual Cost.....Cost Payed.....Remain
2-11........10..........2500+2750upk..........600... ......4650
12-23.......17.5........1875+5250upk..........2400... .....4775
24-35.......25..........1875+7500upk..........7200... .....2175
36-48.......33.75.......2187.5+10968.75.......13000.. .....155.25
49..........43.75.......2500+1093.75..........1500 ........2093.75
50+.........43.75.......1093.75upk/trn........1500/trn....-406.25

Total remaining to be payed as of turn 49 end: 13849
Time to pay it off: 13849/406.25 = 34 turns

Note that the mage actual cost is the cost to purchase the number of additional mages plus the upkeep of the total number of mages for the given number of turns.

The first thing you'll notice is that it isn't until turns 36-48 that you're almost paying for everything you're getting in that time period.

Which isn't too bad. But what if the nation's mage's are sacred?

Turns.....#Mages.....Mages Actual Cost.....Cost Payed.....Remain
2-11........10..........2500+1375upk..........600... ......3275
12-23.......17.5........1875+2625upk..........2400... .....2100
24-35.......25..........1875+3750upk..........7200... .....-1575
36-48.......33.75.......2187.5+5484.375.......13000.. ...-5328.125
49..........43.75.......2500+546.875..........1500 .......1546.875
50+.........43.75.......546.875upk/trn........1500/trn...-953.125

Total remaining to be payed as of turn 49 end: 18.75
Time to pay it off: <1 turn

Ouch. Seriously ouch. Every turn after 49 they're paying 1000 gold they wouldn't normally have to. (953.125, but whatever). That's painful.

Think 250gold for 8RPs sacred is unreasonable? That's identical to MA Shinuyama's 300 gold 10RP mages in terms of gold efficiency. And those mages are sacred.