A Discussion on kingmaking and community standards.

[zlefin]

Squirrel and I had a talk while trying to hash out some of the community standards issues more formally.
Below is the transcript of that talk, i dare you to read it all! (this dare applies to each individual reading this post for the first time)
Before responding to something you just read, keep in mind this is a transcript, and some points made may have been amended later in the discussion, so please read the whole thing before responding.

edit: i had to change all > to ) and likewise for the counterpart symbol so names would show in the log. So I used an autoreplace that apparently affected some actual talk as well.

* Now talking in #logicisfun
*** Join: Squirrelloid (~Squirrell@adsl-68-255-110-138.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net)
*** Join: archae_vanjarr (~no@d75-156-150-160.abhsia.telus.net)
(archae_vanjarr) just watching
(Zlefin) make your opening case!
(archae_vanjarr) have to go out
(Squirrelloid) 'throwing a game' , definition - causing yourself to lose the game by your own action
(Zlefin) sounds reasonable, i can't currently think of anything wrong with that.
(Zlefin) but for simplicity of argument, we'll just accept that as the definition for our purposes here.
(Squirrelloid) beneficial, definition - advantageous, a preferred outcome
(Squirrelloid) note: what is or is not beneficial is inherently subjective to the person for whom it is beneficial
(Squirrelloid) ie, not subject to outside verification
(Zlefin) that is certainly a valid definition of beneficial.
(Squirrelloid) First order of business: To throw a game requires you were capable of winning it
(Squirrelloid) First thing to note: this is a subjective statement, because your capability of winning is assessed by you during each of your turns, and thus through lack of experience or epiphany may fail to see an avenue for victory
(Squirrelloid) so the only person capable of determining whether he is in a position with a chance of winning is the person playing that position
(Zlefin) can we number those statements 1-3 for easier reference?
(Squirrelloid) as in: 1 - To throw a game requires you were capable of winning it. 2: claim of subjectivity. 3: claim that person playing is the only one who can determine capability?
(Zlefin) yes.
(Squirrelloid) k
(Squirrelloid) Proof of: To throw a game requires you were capable of winning it.
(Zlefin) while normal usage of "to throw a game" might allow for other cases, for herein, i accept that statement.
(Squirrelloid) you accept 1 that is?
(Zlefin) yes, i accept 1.
(Squirrelloid) ok, nevermind then
(Zlefin) 2 and 3, i'm still pondering disputes for.
(Zlefin) does your nevermind mean that disputes of 2 and 3 are irrelevant to your ultimate conclusion, or did it refer to something else?
(Squirrelloid) um, nevermind on a proof of 1 if you're accepting it
(Squirrelloid) I mean, it was going to be tedious word-wanking anyway that ends up being a tautology i think
(Zlefin) possibly it may have. so we're working on 2 and 3 now?
(Squirrelloid) yes
(Squirrelloid) i mean, in part this seems obvious to me. Sometimes you get blinded by a particular set of ideas that you fail to see the right strategy. Sometimes you just don't know what the right strategy is
(Squirrelloid) So when assessing your chances for victory, you're inherently working with whatever pre-conceived notions and ideas you can come up with
(Zlefin) certainly such things can happen, we're just trying to be thorough here so we can get this all sorted out properly. could you restate 2?
(Squirrelloid) Basically, the only person who can assess chance of winning is the person playing the game
(Zlefin) why?
(Zlefin) why can't someone else look at the position and assess the chance of winning?
(Squirrelloid) because the functional unit is not the game set up being played. Its the union of that player and the game set up
(Squirrelloid) Because that other person may have access to knowledge or experience different from the player, and see things the player did no
(Squirrelloid) not
(Squirrelloid) Made worse by this particular game being a game of imperfect information
(Zlefin) so, while the position may be winnable, the combination of position and that player, may be unwinnable
(Squirrelloid) so a later review may know things he had to guess at
(Squirrelloid) or the player may assume things to be true that are not true
(Squirrelloid) For example, you're playing against BL, and gem gens are allowed
(Squirrelloid) player assumes BL has been clamming like mad since they could summon or find a caster who can do so
(Squirrelloid) BL doesn't have a single clam
(Squirrelloid) the difference in the actual situation and the assumed situation are vastly different
(Squirrelloid) and while an observer could have perfect information about what BL is doing, the other player cannot during play of the game
(Squirrelloid) (this is what permits bluffing, for example)
(Zlefin) i think i see the perspective you're going for here, can you cover what steps 4+ will be in your proof? at least in a broad sense?
(Squirrelloid) A player who cannot win cannot obviously play to win
(Squirrelloid) call that 4
(Zlefin) ok, 4 : a player who cannot win can't play to win.
(Squirrelloid) 5- at which point which actions are beneficial for him need to be defined in terms of something other than getting closer to victory
(Zlefin) 5, agreed, since victory is unattainable.
(Squirrelloid) 6- the relevant agent here is not the game state, but the player playing the game. Ie, beneficial is defined from his perspective
(Squirrelloid) so you can't say that its beneficial for the nation to do X, as the player might not find that beneficial because his nation state is not necessarily relevant
(Zlefin) 6, i miay still dispute, along with 2 and 3, but i see the line of reasoning you're going down. as which line depends on which conclusions you're trying to reach.
(Zlefin) please continue onto the concluding statements.
(Squirrelloid) 7 - A player should take actions he finds to be beneficial
(Zlefin) query on 7, within what rules?
(Squirrelloid) permitted by the rules of the game would be my general standard. Ie, in the case of a computer game, can accomplish it without altering or hacking the game engine
(Zlefin) i would assume you also add an yexplicit rules set by the game.
(Squirrelloid) Yes, choosing to play a game means voluntarily agreeing to abide by house rules
(Squirrelloid) (not all house rules are necessarily good, but you chose to play)
(Squirrelloid) House rules should be explicitly stated so there is no confusion later
(Zlefin) it is certainly far better that way.
(Squirrelloid) Anecdote, but i was in Wales for a week this summer, and i got to play cricket
(Squirrelloid) they did not explain all the rules to me
(Squirrelloid) when i did something wrong (as was wont to happen), it would have been unacceptable to accuse me of not following the rules
(Squirrelloid) fortunately, they just told me what the rule was, and we moved on
(Zlefin) that is certainly reasonable, as you were not informed of the rules.
(Squirrelloid) anyway, onward
(Zlefin) though on occasion some people might get angry when rules are violated unknowingly, aye onward.
(Squirrelloid) 8 - Given a person who believes he cannot win, and who has chosen ensuring the defeat of a particular enemy is beneficial to him, then (A) giving the win to another player is not throwing the game (1), (B) Doing so is beneficial for him by his own standards and is therefore the proper action
(Squirrelloid) (7 most directly)
(Squirrelloid) 9- further, one might argue that the most efficient and direct method of giving this other player the win is in fact the most beneficial action, and therefore the preferred one
(Zlefin) 8a follows from the prior statements. b seems to be as well.
(Squirrelloid) (9 requires some dithering on values, if you really want it)
(Zlefin) i don't think the values dithering will affect our results here.
(Squirrelloid) its not a perfectly solid proof - i'd need to spend time crafting better language, and probably short cut some steps, but that should be serviceable
(Zlefin) proceed, i gotta go set up some bread, brb.
(Zlefin) it's a fine proof, but on its own it just says what it says, this issue comes out of the issues in asiatwist, so what happens when you apply this to the asiatwist game?
(Squirrelloid) Do i need anything more? I mean, from here its just a matter of fitting example behavior to the statements
(Squirrelloid) Well, I'm not aristander
(Squirrelloid) I believe his actual actions demonstrate he didn't believe he could win
(Squirrelloid) I don't *know* that
(Squirrelloid) but no one else except aristander knows that
(Squirrelloid) I mean, I could further state that, if offered VPs by Aristander, WL would be a fool to refuse
(Squirrelloid) I'm also assuming that all players began the game by playing to win
(Squirrelloid) If some players began the game for RP purposes, or to watch glorious battles, or some other reason, that matters
(Squirrelloid) For example, if WL was playing for glorious battles he'd probably announce 'Rlyeh has declared their capitol free to any who can take it. I'll meet you there"
(Squirrelloid) That he didn't suggests he was playing to win
(Zlefin) certainly people playing for other reasons woudl affect things.
(Zlefin) my understanding, is that archae's original charge is one of collusion.
(Squirrelloid) Right, but collusion is just an accusation of trade
(Squirrelloid) i mean, if aristander offers WL a VP, and WL says yes, that's collusion
(Zlefin) if archae believes, that aristander thought he had a chance of winning, but instead choose to give his vps away, then what would you say?
(Squirrelloid) Archae wasn't the person who had to make decisions that were self-beneficial for Aristander
(Squirrelloid) Archae also wasn't the person who had to decide whether Rlyeh had a chance of winning the game during play and act on that decision
(Zlefin) i agree on that. but in order to reach step 9, the prior steps have to hold.
(Squirrelloid) its true
(Zlefin) and reaching step 9 is about ensuring that your actions are acceptable.
(Squirrelloid) my entire argument is couched in terms of the person playing the nation/side/whatever in question
(Zlefin) i know, but even weithin that the issue remains, let me try to be more clear.
(Squirrelloid) which # do you have a specific problem with?
(Squirrelloid) (or #s)
(Zlefin) Let us imagine a scenario, regardless of whether or not it is true, though it will use the rela names for ease.
(Zlefin) do you consent to lettimg me explain the scenario?
(Squirrelloid) sure
(Squirrelloid) i've made my case - the floor is yours
(Zlefin) suppose aristander believes he is capable of winning the game. and that he nonetheless decides go give away his vps to wraithlord.
(Zlefin) what would your proof say about such a situation and it's acceptability?
(Squirrelloid) it would demonstrate one of at least two things
(Squirrelloid) (1) Aristander threw the game. Generally considered bad form
(Squirrelloid) (2) Aristander wasn't playing to win
(Zlefin) i agree that it would demonstrate one of those.
(Squirrelloid) ie, a different argument could be construed around RP reasons
(Squirrelloid) i don't care to make such an argument
(Squirrelloid) but its possible
(Zlefin) let us call that scenario A
(Zlefin) if i understand correctly, you do not believe that scenario A is the case in fact in asiatwist?
(Squirrelloid) I don't, but i'm concluding that, um... crap, i forget the latin. after the fact because its the most reasonable conclusion in my mind based on the results
(archae_vanjarr) a posteriori
(Squirrelloid) indeed
(archae_vanjarr) sorry not following yet - will read later
(Zlefin) that's fine, it's long and can be posted later.
(Squirrelloid) part of this is I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt
(Squirrelloid) especially regarding things that are subjective judgement calls
(Zlefin) certainly people have different opinions, and read situations differently. Now, if Archae believes that scenario A is in fact the case, then what?
(Squirrelloid) ideally, aristander would have made a statement explaining his views
(Squirrelloid) lacking that, archae is perhaps unjustly thrusting sinister motives on aristander
(Squirrelloid) I mean, yes, i agree, archae is disappointed with the results. He didn't expect it, and its annoying to him
(Zlefin) archae might be wrong certainly, but people often believe things on less than fully complete evidence.
(Squirrelloid) I can empathize with archae
(Zlefin) if archae truly believes that A is the case, then his actions in response make a great deal of sense.
(Zlefin) though i would prefer if they were toned down more.
(Squirrelloid) oh, i agree
(Squirrelloid) on both counts
(Squirrelloid) in archae's shoes i would probably have tried to talk about the matter discreetly with aristander
(Squirrelloid) discretely even?
(Squirrelloid) sigh, one of those is math, and i'll have to look it up
(Zlefin) either way. This is why i suggested that a panel of vets be mutually chosen to decide the matter.
(Zlefin) etely is math i think
(Zlefin) eetly is the one you seek.
(Squirrelloid) indeed
(Zlefin) i'm not sure what to say next.
(Squirrelloid) If you assumed this was a court of law, I'd say that not only has a burden of proof not been met to say A was the case
(Zlefin) well, we haven't been thru the evidence archae looked at and found
(Zlefin) we've jsut been talking more generally.
(Squirrelloid) But that one is unlikely to ever be reached because of the subjective nature of aristander's position
(Zlefin) there's also a few other issues.
(Zlefin) aye, that relates to the issues i had with #2,3,6 iirc.
(Squirrelloid) the only hope of resolution is for Aristander to come out and state his case honestly
(Zlefin) Well, that's certainly one thing that could resolve, though with people oyu can always doubt that they stated tings honestly.
(Squirrelloid) because ultimately this is about Aristander's motives.
(Squirrelloid) well, yes
(Zlefin) thouhg it woudl still be hlpeful to hear him speak on the topic.
(Squirrelloid) but the crux of the matter is the only person who knows is aristander
(Zlefin) I need to look back and get some numbers to make an important point.
(Zlefin) I am now constructing a scenario Z, an extreme case meant to showcase point.
(Zlefin) in Z, the player in question is a noob.
(Zlefin) Note: it may take some time to craft this scenario so that it properly fits all the number rules
(Squirrelloid) that's fine
(Zlefin) On turn 2, the noob player realizes that all the other players in the game are vets with several wins to their name.
(Zlefin) The noob player determines that he is strictly unable to win the game.
(Zlefin) Since the noob player is unable to win, he must decide what to do on a broader definition of beneficial.
(Zlefin) he decides that the most beneficial thing for him, is to get himself out of the game as soon as possible.
(Zlefin) does this so far conform with the rules set forth in 1-9?
(Squirrelloid) granting everything on face value, yes
(Squirrelloid) One wonders how he realizes every other player is a vet on turn 2, but didn't realize it before the game started
(Zlefin) the player decides the best way to do this is to contact another player with an awake sc god, and ask that player to attack his capital, giving that player his location. further, he will tear down his own fort and suicide all his units on indies, to make the battle as easy as possible for the attacker.
(Zlefin) indeed it is odd, as i said, it's an extreme example to showcase a point.
(Squirrelloid) ok, i have two things to say on the matter
(Squirrelloid) 1) the n00b is making some poor choices. It would probably have been more beneficial to play the game and get clobbered by the vets while making an honest effort. However, people make bad decisions all the time
(Squirrelloid) I won't quibble he did decide that quitting was beneficial to him
(Zlefin) i concur with 1)
(Squirrelloid) 2) There are numerous ways to achieve his most beneficial result (leave the game). The particular example you have chosen is no better than, say, setting AI, from the player's perspective
(Squirrelloid) we of course haven't covered how to choose between multiple equally beneficial options
(Zlefin) aye, we have not.. and we don't know whether he might find settin ghimself ai to be distasteful, yet not mind giving someone a free extra cap.
(Zlefin) which would be a rather odd belief to have.
(Zlefin) or maybe he jsut wants to see an sc god attack his pd.
(Squirrelloid) indeed. I'm sure as a thought experiment it would be possible to justify any particular action as being beneficial. People, however, tend to have feelings about what's beneficial for concrete reasons
(Zlefin) what I intended scenario Z to show is this:
(Squirrelloid) (Ok, i know someone who might do something crazy and random like that just because - i believe Neil Stephenson gave this a description of 'Poor Impulse Control'
(Zlefin) most people in the community would consider scenario Z to be unacceptable behavior. the rules set forth in 1-9 would technically allow it, some form of reconciliation is required.
(Zlefin) In my own personal opinion, when dealing with issues 2&3, people in the community (again in my opinion) think that while it's partly subjective, there's also partly a reasonableness to the belief that you cannot win.
(Squirrelloid) well, that will certainly color the impression your actions foster
(Squirrelloid) I mean, an important resource in a game like Dominions3, where you'll likely play with some of the same people multiple times, is reputation
(Zlefin) i agree, reputation is relevant, which brings a whole other set of things that constitute "beneficial" in the broad sense.
(Squirrelloid) which, no matter how justified your actions may be, you may still develop a negative reputation because of them
(Squirrelloid) If i were going to fault anyone, however, it would be aristander and not WL
(Zlefin) I'd be fine with that.
(Squirrelloid) and I'd do that mentally, in my head, when making decisions about how much to trust or rely on them in a game
(Zlefin) i didn't expressly think of that before, but as you say it, that's a resolution i'd be fine with.
(Squirrelloid) i mean, similarly, if you set AI because you lose a battle, people remember that
(Squirrelloid) there's definitely a meta-game aspect to this
(Zlefin) aye, and that gets things complicated.
(Squirrelloid) So, does aristander get a bad rap for this in the meta-game? Or does he become a preferred ally?
(Zlefin) there are basically a few issues that come out of asiatwist, but only a few, as the game has clearly ended.
(Squirrelloid) that's going to depend on player preferences
(Zlefin) from the dom3 game's view, wraith clearly won. Whether a win is a more complex question, obviously some wins have been discounted if they happened throug hdirect cheating or hacking. whether such would apply to this case, is another question.
(Zlefin) The other real question at this point, is whether the game should be included in the standings in the hall of fame, which serve a purpose of recognizing playeres and nations which are successful.
(Squirrelloid) (some people, eg archae, dislike what he did and are going to give him a black mark in their head. Others may be inclined to see that as an ability to count on his support to end a game. Yet others, like myself, would probably be ambivalent on the matter, but would keep in mind what to expect
(Zlefin) aye, i'm going to dislike him simply fo rmaking me explicitly put rules i follow implicitly
(Zlefin) but that's a side matter.
(Squirrelloid) That's a matter for whomever maintains the HoF i imagine, since ultimately they control what qualifies
(Squirrelloid) Personally, if WL was likely to win the game regardless, I'd give it to him without question
(Squirrelloid) If he was unlikely to win the game without that help, I'd probably flag it with a special mention about it being a diplomatic victory, and explain that
(Zlefin) if he was likely to, as opposed to near certain to?
(Zlefin) i know there is a dispute as to whether he was factually likely to wi nthe game anyways.
(Squirrelloid) like an 80% likelihood or better, perhaps
(Zlefin) that seems reasoable, one of the purposes of the HoF is balance, that is, recognizing the balance of nations by noting how often they win.
(Squirrelloid) right
(Squirrelloid) of course, diplomacy seems more important than actual nation played
(Zlefin) Which is a subject of community interest, rather than simply a minor thing for the person keeping the list to decide.
(Zlefin) aye, i've heard that remarked many a time.
(Squirrelloid) I'm winning WTW by a rather large margin, despite playing one of the weakest nations in it
(Squirrelloid) (I can't actually *end* the damn game, but i'm at least as powerful as the rest of the nations combined)
(Zlefin) i know i've heard people break down how various components account for wins, and placed diplomacy at like 35-50
(Zlefin) %
(Squirrelloid) i'd believe 50%
(Squirrelloid) the key to winning strategic games with diplomacy is arrange to never fight a fair war
(Squirrelloid) which entirely depends on the success of your diplomacy
(Squirrelloid) anyway, I think the initial reason for discussion has been as resolved as its going to get
(Squirrelloid) unless anyone can convince aristander to speak for himself
(Zlefin) i dont' recall what you said in response to my note that using some degree of reasonableness is way of reconciling scenario Z with 2&3.
(Squirrelloid) oh, i hadn't. I sort of agree.
(Zlefin) iin general, i agree, i think we've basically agreed on alot of theories and scenarios, and in this instance, there's simpmly facts we don't know well enough to say to a certainty.
(Squirrelloid) I think more important than hemming and hawing over whether an action was reasonable or not, it would be better to *encourage* community standards that avoid the most flagrantly offensive actions
(Zlefin) oh yeah, the other reason for the discussion is understnading the distinction between the giving of the gems to archae, and the giving of vps to wraith
(Squirrelloid) not require, just encourage
(Squirrelloid) For example, encourage a 'losing is fun' mentality, so n00bs stick out those games where they're surrounded by vets
(Squirrelloid) i mean, that's basically what's being done to combat people setting AI
(Squirrelloid) and it works, to a point