Hello again when I was pointing out in another thread that the panzer II only fired semiautomatic I was also going to use the PzKw I C as an example of another German tank where the main gun was also developed from a fully automatic weapon but was limited to semi-automatic fire because it was the main gun of a tank. But I didn't do that because I am trying to keep my posts shorter.
Anyways, as it turns out the PzKw I C (units 572, 573 and 858) is very interesting to look at in its own right, as indeed are AT rifles in general. PzKw I C is armed with the EW 131 (wpn 16), an anti tank rifle. Tony Williams, author of the book Rapid Fire gives penetration of the Spitzgeschoß mit Hartkern tungsten cored ammunition (S.m.K.H.) which is what the EW 131 fired as
42mm/300m/00º (his 90º)
20mm/300m/30º (his 60º)
10mm/300m/60º (his 30º)
see
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewto...912b60#p658545
Jentzs Panzertracts 1-2 confirms the PzKw I C fired S.m.K.H. shells and gives 94 carried, the game allocates 120 shells. Also the games 120 shells appear as 30 AP and 90 Sabot which I don't understand as the EW 131 only fired the one type of ammunition, S.m.K.H. Shouldnt it be either all AP or all sabot?
Early in the war the German AT rifle Pzb 39 (wpn 88) also fired the S.m.K.H. bullet and so should get exactly the same penetrations and ranges as the EW 131. But when the tungsten supply dried up they substituted the tungsten cored bullet with a hardened steel core bullet (S.m.K.) which explains the lower penetrations for that rifle given below. EW 131 and Pzb 38/39 have the same barrel length and muzzle velocity.
The Pzb 38/39 and EW 131 have ranges of 13 and 18 and accuracies of 34 and 17, I guess the greater range of the EW 131 reflects that the PzKw I C has a telescopic sight (Turmzielfernrohr 10) but if that is why it gets an increased range shouldn't the telescopic sight also give the EW 131 an increased instead of a decreased accuracy when compared to the Pzb 38/39?
As regards Penetration, I see you have done something clever in the WinSPWW2 Armour Penetration Calculator. The AP penetrations of the various AT rifles are consistently below the actual penetrations the guns were capable of, but the best AP are about right. So I am guessing this is meant to reflect the small effect of the bullet when it does penetrate.
I had a look at the pamphlet Boys antitank rifle Mark I by Gale and Polden Ltd it gives these penetrations for the rifle.
_______0º 20º 40º
100 yds 23 17 11
300 yds 21 16 10
500 yds 19 15 9
The pamphlet states that the Boys AT rifle was "extremely accurate at ranges of 300 yards and below".
If you fire the Boys at a light armoured car at 150m we are comparing a pen of 2 to armour value of 1. In Game you will get about 1 penetration in every 3-4 hits (the message shows something like pen 2 armour 1, no effect) with other catagories of weapons you will get 4 penetrations with 4 hits. In reality the 4 AT rifle hits would be 4 penetrations. I think this might be done to show the minimal effect of the bullet passing through the vehicle? ie 3 out of every 4 bullets travelling through the vehicle is discarded as having no effect. However when we are shooting at 300m its still penetration of 2 versus armour of 1 so all the bullets are still passing through the vehicle but in-game at 300m there is now only 1 penetration for every 15 hits. I think discarding 14 out of every 15 penetrations as 'no effect' is too high. I dont think the number of penetrations discarded should be range dependant so maybe this is a bug? .
The AT rifles get a double whammy because even though at 150m 3 out of 4 penetrations is disregarded (or even 14 out of 15 at 300) the one penetration that is allowed then virtually always gets a * instead of a kill. I think its probably more realistic to have all the hits treated normally ie as penetratoions, so most hits have an effect instead of least, but keep the replacement of Kills with *s(damage) effect.
Enter the Germans, why do they make everything so complicated? Unlike everyone else's AT rifles the Germans AT rifles have sabot. When the German AT rifle sabot hits the target it's almost always a instant kill, this looks to me to be a bug or oversight as well.
Dont forget there is petrol, ammunition, grenades and flares in these vehicles. Also they are on balance small and the crew cramped, It would actually be hard to draw a line through many types without hitting someone, and no doubt they aimed at places where they knew a crew member was. Some tanks even went to the trouble of having fake visors. Real life accounts describe ATR bullet penetrations as not insignificant, especially Russian.
At the other end of the scale are the 20mm AT rifles. The various 20mm GUNS, say the Oerliken, Polsten or KWK 30 do not have the Best AP sustituted for the AP values, so neither should the 20mm AT rifles. The Finnish Lahti actually had a 20mm APHE-T shell which will give it a better in-vehicle effect than an 20mm AT GUN firing solid shot.
The 20mm Soluthurn AT rifle, S18-1000 is the version adopted by the Italians (wpns. 141 and 142), Netherlands (wpn. 142) and Germany (Missing, panzerabwehrbuchse 785). Note that this gun can fire a HE shell So a few HE shells might be added to its loadout. The Hungarians used the S18-100 with slightly less penetration and also mounted it in the Csaba AC and Toldi tank. So the penetration values in WW2_APCALC for the Hungarian AT rifle (wpn. 142) and the tank gun, (wpn. 008 20mm L65 31M) as mounted in the Hungarian Toldi and Csaba (units 2,3 and 102) should be the same which they aren't. A. williams book, Rapid fire lists the shell fired by the S18-100, the 20x105B short solothurn, as only coming in AP form. Though Wikipedia mentions that the Hungarians developed a APHE-T shell for the gun. S18-1000 and S18-100 both had a SO 9 wheeled carriage which it could and often was fired from. Its an AT GUN in all but name in that configuration. Bulgaria also uses this weapon (wpn. 142).
There looks to be a little confusion with regards to the Italian Solothurn guns, Wpn. 142, Solothurn M.39 and Wpn 141, Solothurn M.41. The Italians used S18-1000 not the S18-100 calling it either the Carabina "S" or Fucile anticarro "S" (S for anti-tank rifle). So I dont know where the M.39 and M.41 designations come from. The problem is that the Solothurn M.39 has to be the S18-1000 but the M.39 has the poorer S18-100 penetration statistics. The M.39 needs to have the correct penetrations the same as the M.41(stats of a S18-1000) mounted in the tankette already has. The weapon mounted in the tankette is exactly the same gun as used in the infantry AT teams and should have the same stats, if not the same designation.
Some comments I found on ranges for AT rifles. Tony Williams author of Rapid Fire mentions that Russian ww2 vintage AT rifles were used in the Korean war for long range sniping. Russian infantry weapons by Barker and Walter gives the effective range of the PTRS/PTRD against bunkers as 880m. Steven Zaloga calls them "powerful long range weapons" When used as antimaterial weapons against MG nests and soft vehicles.
For anyone interested and as a reference here are some penetrations from various books.
The Antitank Rifle by Steven Zaloga gives these penetrations.
Best AP at that range is given in brackets(@0º and the actual value is the Mode)
_______100m/0 100m/30 300m/0 300m/30
wz.35_____35/33(3)_15__16(3)___15-13
PzB39____30(3)____23__25-23(3)_10
Boys MkI__17(2)____14__14(2)____11
Boys MkII__23(2)___16___21(2)___15
PTR B32__40(4)____30__35(3)____27
PTR BS-41_50(4)___35__40(3)____33
S18-100____35(3)___20__27(3)___15
S18-1000___40(4)___27__35(3)___24
Lahti L39___37(4)___26___33(3)__22-20
Type 97____35(4)___24___30(3)__20
And from various other books.
BestAP:AP from WW2_APCALC, at that particular range, Mode values again.
Rifle Calibres
Wpn 135 Polish 7.92 kb.Ur wz35 (14)
3:2 20-33mm/100m/0º_____; 4.
3:2 15mm/100m/60º_______; 4.
3:1 25-33mm/300m/0º_____; 1.
3:1 20mm/300m/0º________; 2. 6.
Wpn 88 German Pzb 38/39 (13)
3:2 30mm/100m/60º *_____; 6. 7.
3:2 30mm/100m/0º_______; 4.
3:1 25mm/300m/60º *_____; 7.
3:1 25mm/300m/30º______; 1. 2. 5.
2:0 0mm/500m/60º *______; 7.
Wpn 16 German EW 131 (18)
3:1 25mm/300m/30º______; 1.
Wpn 137 German PzB M.SS.41 (12)
3:2 30mm/100m/60º *_____; 6.
3:1 20mm/300m/0º_______; 1.
HMG calibre(.55", 14.5mm)
Wpn 134 British Boys AT Rifle (10)
2:1 20mm/90m/0º_________; 3.
2:1 20mm/100m/30º_______; 4.
2:0 21mm/300m/0º________; 1. 5. 6.
1:0 20mm/500m/0º________; 2.
1:0 16mm/500yd/0º_______; 8.
1:0 14mm/500yd/20º______; 8.
Wpn 135 Russian PTRS/PTRD (14)
4:3 40mm/100m/0º________; 3.
4:3 30mm/100m/0º________; 1.
4:3 30mm/100m/30º_______; 4.
3:1 27.5mm/300m/0º______; 1.
3:1 25mm/500m/0º_______; 1. 2. 5. 6.
20mm
Wpn 141, 142 Italian Solothurn S18-100 and S18-1000 (12)
3:2 20-22mm/100m/30º^___; 1.
3:1 15-18mm/300m/30º^___; 1. 6.
3:1 35mm/300m/0º~______; 2.
Japanese Type 97 ATR (14)
4:2 45mm/250m/?º_______; 6.
4:2 30mm/250m/0º_______; 5. 9.
4:2 12mm/200m/0º_______; 2.
Note the Best APs match very well to the published penetrations, Though some minor tweeks look possible.
* possibly 40 or 30 degrees, author may consider vertical to be 90º instead of the usual 0º
^ S18-100
~ S18-1000
Game ranges are given in brackets after the weapon name. Probably could be a little higher overall and also as the calibres increase.
1. Small arms, Artillery and Special Weapons of the Third Reich By Gander and Chamberlain.
2. The encyclopedia of Infantry weapons of WW2 by Ian Hogg
3. Weapons of WW2 by Alexander ludeke
4. Rapid fire by Tony Williams
5. The encycopedia of weapons of WW2 by Chris Bishop
6. Anti Tank Weapons ww2 fact files by Gander and Chamberlain
7. German Infantry weapons Barker and Walter
8. British and American infantry weapons Barker and Walter
9. Rikugun vol 2
I think these might be absent in the game; China had 6129 boys AT rifles from 1942 onwards and Marine Raiders had and used boys AT rifles.
The Japanese type 97 usually has a 4 man crew, currently 2. Might be sensible to have all 20mm AT rifles 4 man teams, they are heavy. Type 97 also has a HE shell, so maybe a small number of shells in the HE slot might be appropriate. Possibly the same for Hungarian AT rifle wpn 142.
The S18-1000 appears in the Camionetta desertica SPA-Viberti Mod 42, similar to your Italian unit 11 Autocannone 20 but armed with a S18-1000 and a 8mm Breda MG. Might be a nice addition. Here is a picture.
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=529432
Introduction date of Soviet 14.5mm BS-41 ammunition given as 4/42 here
http://www.tank-net.com/forums/index...c=42774&page=1
Boys MKII introduced about 1943
AT rifle bugs?
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