My AI Design Q&A

[cybersol]

Originally posted by JLS:
And now, that you just invested, in actuality a Prepare for attack (when a Incursion was the call). Can you say that your AI can afford another tumble thru Prepare for Attack, again, and again? Please consider, will you have exotic ships like the Planet or System Destroyer, etc… In the Prepare for Attack.
If not, then were would you request them?

So let us say my AI has plenty of resource reserves and is half way through building everything in the "Prepare for Attack" queue. Then it switches to another state, say "Defend (Short Term)" to repel a small enemy fleet from its territory. Lets say theoretically that it manages to do this without taking any loses, without building any ships, and without colonizing any planets. When it switches back to "Prepare for Attack", the first ship added to construction queues will be from what location in the "Prepare for Attack" queue? Will it be the first entry at the top, the Last entry at the bottom, or would it be the exact entry it would have produced next if it had never been interrupted by the "Defend (Short Term)" state?

[JLS]

Originally posted by cybersol:

So let us say my AI has plenty of resource reserves and is half way through building everything in the "Prepare for Attack" queue.
Then it switches to another state, say "Defend (Short Term)" to repel a small enemy fleet from its territory.
Lets say theoretically that it manages to do this without taking any loses, without building any ships, and without colonizing any planets.

Cybersol,

From the Variables you described above:

Your build queues will continue the construction process to complete, all Items, which are already under construction from your previous, Prepare for Attack State. (IIRC) Any Items, other then top in processed Item, will be cleared from the queues.

-

Please remember, your AI now had a change State; to Defend Short Term, basically for (5 Turns)
Now, with this new State Change, the AI will fill all available build queues, Starting at the top of the AI State: = Defend Short Term List (Irregardless of the format: i.e. Combined with any other AI State or not. Subject to AI State rules.

It is recommended, that units be placed at the top of this Defend Short Term, because the AI Switches in an out of this State frequently. This way, thru out the game your Home World will be assured of a fresh supply.
Any available BSYs or Yard Facilities will continue on with the Defend (Short Term) list, of course the BSY will only receive, Ship or Base requests.

This reminds me. Cybersol, about how many BSYs do you expect at about turn 55?

Defend Short Term:
Entry 1 Type: Weapon Platform (Highly suggested, to insure steady and continues builds of fresh designs for your se4 AI’s Home World.
2: Satellites and or Fighters
Attack Ships
Defense Ships (Optional)
Etc

Please note: From the Defend (Short Term) With no enemy in your Territory, the AI will only change to Infrastructure State or the Exploration as out lined below.

(E) Enemy is NOT IN that AI’s territory and there are NO Systems to Explore; then your AI may revert to the ~(B) Infrastructure State

FROM (E)to(B)THEN and IF , Enough time since the Last Attack has passed from your AI Settings File (XiChung @ Turns to Wait until next attack := 6) then your AI WILL consider from (B) Infrastructure State again, for an Attack or an Incursion

Or

(F) However, from Defend Short Term, if no enemy is in that AI territory, or nearby and there are Systems to Explore still; then your AI may revert all the way back to the Exploration State.

When it switches back to "Prepare for Attack", the first ship added to construction queues will be from what location in the "Prepare for Attack" queue? Will it be the first entry at the top, the Last entry at the bottom, or would it be the exact entry it would have produced next if it had never been interrupted by the "Defend (Short Term)" state?

Your build queues will continue the construction process to complete, all Items, which are already under construction from your previous, Defend (Short Term). (IIRC) Any Items, other then top in processed Item, will be cleared from the queues.
=
When the AI; picks a selection based on the AI State, the first item in the queue is selected, and evaluated , the AI will fill all available build queues.

=

Reference:

AI CONSTRUCTION VEHICLES DATA FILE
Rules:
1. The game picks a selection based on the AI State. There cannot be duplicate
AI states.
2. Item will be placed at whichever spaceyard is available and can get it done the fastest.
3. First item in the queue is selected, and evaluated. We construct if:
Please refer to file for formula. If I post data, a HTML error here will, exist
4. If the Build at Least value is greater than 0, we check if the Planet Per Item condition
is still true. If it is, then we purchase another one, if not, we move to the next
queue item. If we do purchase another one, we continue in this loop until the
condition is false, or we have purchased the number in Build At Least.
5. When the Last item is reached, it restarts at the beginning.

[ June 25, 2003, 02:07: Message edited by: JLS ]

[cybersol]

Originally posted by JLS:
Your build queues will continue the construction process to complete, all Items, which are already under construction from your previous, Defend (Short Term). (IIRC) Any Items, other then top in processed Item, will be cleared from the queues.
=
When the AI; picks a selection based on the AI State, the first item in the queue is selected, and evaluated , the AI will fill all available build queues.

When it switches back to "Prepare for Attack" after my hypothetical situation, it will indeed process the first entry. But it has already completed this entry since neither PPI nor MHAL has changed since it was Last in this queue (because no ships were made or destroyed and no planet were made). Thus the first "ship" it will add to a construction queue is exactly the one it would have added if it had never switched to the "Defend (Short Term)" state.

Originally posted by JLS:
And now, that you just invested, in actuality a Prepare for attack (when a Incursion was the call). Can you say that your AI can afford another tumble thru Prepare for Attack, again, and again? Please consider, will you have exotic ships like the Planet or System Destroyer, etc… In the Prepare for Attack.
If not, then were would you request them?

Given the example above about how the queues work, I don't really see why it would be expensive to make multiple passes through a "Prepare for Attack" like queue. Either you have a ship already and it can skip the entry or you still need it so you build it. If you call for one star destroyer (PPI=0,MHAL=1), then as long as it is either being built or already built and still surviving then you will never build another.

Originally posted by JLS:
This reminds me. Cybersol, about how many BSYs do you expect at about turn 55?

Being in the proportions type frame of mind, you are not going to like the answer. Right now, it would have zero. I may eventually add one or two to better handle single planet starts. By turn 55, it would have a large number of planetary yards though.

Originally posted by JLS:
It is recommended, that units be placed at the top of this Defend Short Term, because the AI Switches in an out of this State frequently. This way, thru out the game your Home World will be assured of a fresh supply.
Any available BSYs or Yard Facilities will continue on with the Defend (Short Term) list, of course the BSY will only receive, Ship or Base requests.

I disagree slightly here. In the unmodded game there is very little cargo room on planets. The small cargo room makes it more important to plan which units are built on each planet type. The construction_units file allow this type of specific assignment. Using the construction_units file also free's up planetary space yards to work on ships instead of units. With a few exceptions based on needed cargo for carriers or layers, I think most units should be built through the construction_units file in the unmodded game.

[JLS]

Originally posted by Cybersol:
When it switches back to "Prepare for Attack" after my hypothetical situation, it will indeed process the first entry.

Indeed: Yes, exactly as I posted.

When the AI; picks a selection based on the AI State (in your hypothetical situation, to: Prepare for Attack; (as in any AI state change), the first item in the queue is selected, and evaluated , the AI will fill all available build queues.

However, what you are not excepting, Cybersol, too be true; is that your AI will NEVER return to the Prepare for Attack State, from the Defend (Short Term) State.

In addition, your build queues will continue the construction process to complete, all Items, which are already under construction; from your previous, STATE.
~

Originally posted by Cybersol:
But it has already completed this entry since neither PPI nor MHAL has changed since it was Last in this queue (because no ships were made or destroyed and no planet were made). Thus the first "ship" it will add to a construction queue is exactly the one it would have added if it had never switched to the "Defend (Short Term)" state.

Cybersol, again, your AI WILL NOT, return to the Prepare for Attack State, from the Defend (Short Term)" state, as I explained in all my Posts you, you have read, and commented on.

Respect to your hypothetical situation:
IF the AI will NOT return to Prepare for Attack State from the Defend (Short Term)" state, how can your AI start off, were it left off?

With your intended Formats, you posted below.
=
==
=
Regards to any other theoretical, AI State Change:
Also, please, refer to se4 Rules; regarding, were the AI will start the construction queue.
How is it interpreted, by you Cybersol, that:
“ Thus the first "ship" it will add to a construction queue is exactly the one it would have added if it had never switched '' state. ”

Please, point out your referance.
=================================================
Rules: AI CONSTRUCTION VEHICLES DATA FILE

1. The game picks a selection based on the AI State. There cannot be duplicate
AI states.
2. Item will be placed at whichever spaceyard is available and can get it done the fastest.
3. First item(Note:not "ship") in the queue is selected, and evaluated.

code:

---

We construct if:

a. There are less than X planets

per each item, (if there are 13 planets 

and we already have 4 ships 

of this design type,

and the Planet Per Item value = 3,

then we buy another one). 

If PPI < (Num Planets /

 Num Ships of Type), construct.

---

~
4. If the Build at Least value is greater than 0, we check if the Planet Per Item condition
is still true.
If it is, then we purchase another one, if not, we move to the next
queue item. If we do purchase another one, we continue in this loop until the
condition is false, or we have purchased the number in Build At Least.
5. When the Last item is reached, it restarts at the beginning.

Cybersol groupings:
Exploration
Not Connected
Infrastructure
Secure Holdings After Attack
Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion
Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
=================================================

Originally posted by Cybersol:
Given the example above about how the queues work, I don't really see why it would be expensive to make multiple passes through a "Prepare for Attack" like queue. Either you have a ship already and it can skip the entry or you still need it so you build it. If you call for one star destroyer (PPI=0,MHAL=1), then as long as it is either being built or already built and still surviving then you will never build another.

I am sorry, Cybersol. Your example above, as you can see was, flawed.
Since the AI will NEVER change to Prepare for Attack FROM the Defend (Short Term) as a logic, or even by your groupings, posted.
======

Originally posted by JLS:
And now, that you just invested, in actuality a Prepare for attack (when a Incursion was the call). Can you say that your AI can afford another tumble thru Prepare for Attack, again, and again? Please consider, will you have exotic ships like the Planet or System Destroyer, etc… In the Prepare for Attack.
If not, then were would you request them?

Cybersol.
Some how you have confused the Post I made; (IMO) Why, you should Not have Incursion State combined with the Prepare for Attack, Attack State.
With your Hypothetical Scenario about The AI Switching to, Prepare to Attack from Secure Defend (Short Term)" state.
---
As you recall, this is to say if you have a PPI on any of your ITEMS types, you gave in your format group of: Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion

And now knowing that the AI does enter the Incursion frequently, then, yes, your ships count will increase rapidly, PER the PPI every time you enter the Incursion state as I pointed out in THAT post, this will include every Item you have in your Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion

In regards to Exotic ships, I was just asking your intent, and where you thought a reasonable group would be for your AI to call it.

However, since you have now said, yes, you are going to have ONE star Destroyer, and it will be in you’re: Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion State.

Originally posted by Cybersol:
The incursion state I thought was like a minor harrasment of the enemy.
------------------------
Follow up reply by JLS:
True, at any and or ALL Enemies Systems/Territories of opportunity; with only a few parameters and safeguards.

I am surprised you will have on hand, such an exotic and expensive Star Destroyer, “just for a minor harrasment on the enemy” from this, AI Incursion mission. Not to mention the Items that will continue to be built in that Incursion Mission in the way you have its group setup.

I have question, if, you run out of maintenance and will build no new ships. Yet your research continues, your designs are improving and you cannot retrofit, do to lack of resources and now you have a windfall of Resources. Can your AI, then retrofit considering the 50% rule.

What you suggest is an offensive, doctrine, however:
What of resources when your AI actually, will need to plan a: Prepare for Attack then Attack:
One, Nearby well defended system (Perhaps another Players, HS)

Just as important:
Now what if the AI, will need to plan for a; Prepare for Defense at some point in the game, will this be possible, if it has no resources.
(Perhaps Your AI Players, HS)

Most important:
Now what if the AI, will be in need to Defend (Long Term) at some point in the game, will this be possible, if it has no resources.
===

I disagree slightly here. In the unmodded game there is very little cargo room on planets. The small cargo room makes it more important to plan which units are built on each planet type.

Interesting, is not the default Space Empires 4 AI Construction Vehicles file, the unmodded game.

reference:
Excerpt from se4 unmodded, default file:

AI State := Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Num Queue Entries := 21
Entry 1 Type := Weapon Platform
Entry 1 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 1 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 2 Type := Satellite
Entry 2 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 2 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 3 Type := Attack Ship
Entry 3 Planet Per Item := 30
Entry 3 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 4 Type := Mine
Entry 4 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 4 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 5 Type := Fighter
Entry 5 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 5 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 6 Type := Mine Sweeper
Entry 6 Planet Per Item := 200
Entry 6 Must Have At Least := 1
Entry 7 Type := Colonizer
Entry 7 Planet Per Item := 100
Entry 7 Must Have At Least := 1
Entry 8 Type := Weapon Platform
Entry 8 Planet Per Item := 5
Entry 8 Must Have At Least := 10
Entry 9 Type := Satellite
Entry 9 Planet Per Item := 5
Entry 9 Must Have At Least := 10
Entry 10 Type := Mine
Entry 10 Planet Per Item := 5
Entry 10 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 11 Type := Fighter
Entry 11 Planet Per Item := 2
Entry 11 Must Have At Least := 20
Entry 12 Type := Troop
Entry 12 Planet Per Item := 10
Entry 12 Must Have At Least := 2

====

The construction_units file allow this type of specific assignment. Using the construction_units file also free's up planetary space yards to work on ships instead of units. “Using the construction_units file also free's up planetary space yards to work on ships instead of units.”

Are you stating here, that the Home World or Colonies with a planetary space yard, will not build units, just ships.
Just kidding

Actually, the Construction Units File, does for all the colonies. That the Construction Vehicles files, could never have achieved. As it relates to Units.
Wouldn’t you agree

[ June 25, 2003, 21:03: Message edited by: JLS ]

[cybersol]

Originally posted by JLS:
However, what you are not excepting, Cybersol, too be true; is that your AI will NEVER return to the Prepare for Attack State, from the Defend (Short Term) State.

I re-read your previous post, which has been edited since I read it Last. You are saying it will most likely transition through an Infrastructure state before it can get back to the prepare for attack state?

Originally posted by JLS:
Respect to your hypothetical situation:
So if the AI will NOT return to Prepare for Attack State from the Defend (Short Term)" state, how can your AI start off, were it left off?

Assume all intervening queues were dummy queues with a call for one attack ship. Since the prepare for attack already build a lot of these attack ships, no new ones will be built.

The point of the example, flawed as it was, is that the AI will never rebuild anything it already has, so you do not have to worry about multiple passes close in time through the same queue of items.

Originally posted by JLS:
Regards to any other theoretical, AI State Change: Also, please, refer to se4 Rules; regarding, were the AI will start the construction queue.
How is it interpreted, by you Cybersol, that:
“ Thus the first "ship" it will add to a construction queue is exactly the one it would have added if it had never switched '' state. ”

Originally in the queue lets say it was just about to add the first ship from entry 15 to a build queue, but it never did add that ship because it just added the Last one from entry 14 when it left the Prepare for Attack state. In the example no ships were built or destroyed while in the other AI states, and no planets were colonized. When it looks at entry 1 when it returns to the "Prepare for Attack" state, it will see that PPI and MHAL are already satisfied because those ships or whatever the entry calls for have already in existence. Thus it will move on to entry 2 without adding anything to a build queue, and so on until entry 14. The Last time at entry 14, we had just added the Last ship that satisfied the PPI and MHAL criteria, so this time it will move on past entry 14 (it may still be building a few of these ships from Last time if they took a long time to build, but that counts as existence to the AI). Thus, the first ship it will ADD to a construction queue is the first one in entry 15. Right where it left off.

Originally posted by JLS:
As you recall, this is to say if you have a PPI on any of your ITEMS types, you gave in your format group of: Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion

And now knowing that the AI does enter the Incursion frequently, then, yes, your ships will multiply, PER the PPI every time you enter the Incursion state as I pointed out in THAT post, this will include every Item you have in your Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion

Again, I think multiply not the ideal description of how the queues work. Every time it enters the Incursion state it will start at the top and try to build forces, but the nth time through it will have most of the forces from the nth-1 time, so it will only build the ones it needs. How does that result in ship multiplication?

[cybersol]

Originally posted by JLS:
I have question, if, you run out of maintenance and will build no new ships. Yet your research continues, your designs are improving and you cannot retrofit, do to lack of resources and now you have a windfall of Resources. Can your AI, then retrofit considering the 50% rule.

What you suggest is an offensive, doctrine, however:
What of resources when your AI actually, will need to plan a: Prepare for Attack then Attack:
One, Nearby well defended system (Perhaps another Players, HS)

Just as important:
Now what if the AI, will need to plan for a; Prepare for Defense at some point in the game, will this be possible, if it has no resources.
(Perhaps Your AI Players, HS)

Most important:
Now what if the AI, will be in need to Defend (Long Term) at some point in the game, will this be possible, if it has no resources.

What I suggest is a difference in doctorine, to be sure. But it is not inherently an offensive or defensive doctorine. The doctorine is to utilize the AI resources of materials and building queues to their maximal extent as early as possible. This is how I, as a human player, would play the game, so why shouldn't the AI?

Now there are some minor drawbacks due to what the AI is capable of, but IMO there are major drawbacks to leaving the resources sitting idle.

On the obsolescence front, the AI will have ships that are older technology (so would I). In general this is a good thing because it means the AI is rapidly progressing in its research. It does leave the need to retrofit, which the AI will sometimes attempt to do. If you maximum maintenance percentage of revenue is set correctly, you will still have the resource reserves to retrofit. The 50% rule is always a minor problem, particularly for the mid-game LC to BC hulls. But, it will remain a problem even if I build fewer ships.

On the when your AI needs resources for attack or defense front, I beleive a large standing set of fleets is the best way to have a successful attack or defense. If I have the maximum number of ships fielded and replace them as fast as possible, then I have done the most I can to ensure a successful attack or a successful defense. There is then no need to build ships because they are already built.

Now, your way, you are invaded and you start to enter the defense state, and only then do you begin a buildup of the forces you need to defend. What if you can not build fast enough?

My way, the standing fleet engages the enemy. As loses are incurred, newer 'modern' replacements are built. The faster the loses are incurred the faster the resources are freed for new construction. In the worst case scenario my standing fleet is demolished and I begin a buildup of new forces to defend.

In the worst case scenario, my strategy defaults to your fresh buildup as the resources are freed nearly instantaneously. If I can't build fast enough now, I am doomed, but you would have been as well. And you never had the extra chance of winning that the standing navy provided.

[JLS]

Originally posted by cybersol:

quote:

---

Originally posted by JLS:
And now, that you just invested, in actuality a Prepare for attack (when a Incursion was the call). Can you say that your AI can afford another tumble thru Prepare for Attack, again, and again? Please consider, will you have exotic ships like the Planet or System Destroyer, etc… In the Prepare for Attack.
If not, then were would you request them?

So let us say my AI has plenty of resource reserves and is half way through building everything in the "Prepare for Attack" queue. Then it switches to another state, say "Defend (Short Term)" to repel a small enemy fleet from its territory. Lets say theoretically that it manages to do this without taking any loses, without building any ships, and without colonizing any planets. When it switches back to "Prepare for Attack", the first ship added to construction queues will be from what location in the "Prepare for Attack" queue? Will it be the first entry at the top, the Last entry at the bottom, or would it be the exact entry it would have produced next if it had never been interrupted by the "Defend (Short Term)" state?

---

What are you talking about: Assume all intervening queues were dummy queues ???
Why would I do that.

Where was this stated that there are; intervening queues were dummy queues in your POSTED; hypothetical situation, Or all the first 15 PPI settings are unobtainable) above?

Regards to:
“And now knowing that the AI does enter the Incursion frequently, then, yes, your ships count will increase rapidly, PER the PPI every time you enter the Incursion state as I pointed out in THAT post, this will include every Item you have in your Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion
“
Please refer to:
Cybersol,
Now knowing that the AI does enter the Incursion frequently, then, yes, your ships count will increase rapidly, PER the PPI every time you enter the Incursion state as I pointed out in THAT post, this will include every Item you have in your Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion.

Cybersol, all you need to do now, is Study and Learn the:
AI CONSTRUCTION VEHICLES DATA FILE, Rules.
Focus on line 3, first sentence.
3. First item in the queue is selected
Unless of coarse your first 15, lines are, what, dummies. (Or all your first 15 (PPI) settings are what, unobtainable) In your: AI STATE: Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion

Please, consider what I posted in regards to the AI state Changes, and all that it implies.


[ June 25, 2003, 22:37: Message edited by: JLS ]