Did you noticed.......

[apoger]

>Are you honestly suggesting that the looks is the only thing that is improved in the game?

The looks and a few nice interface tweaks, such as the research pool.

Yup, that's it.

Beyond that is the gameplay, and frankly I think Dom I played better and was better balanced.


>As far as I can tell the replay speed, the scarcity of gold and its consequences is the only issue you have raised. Sure there might be balance issues in some cases but this was the case at the release of dom 1 as well.

Balance issues is putting it mildly.

Dom I was not about graphics or interface, obviously. What made Dom I great was a combination of incredible complexity and the balance between those complexities. In a game as massive as Dom I there were only a handfull of balance issues.

It seems that IW was intent on making pretenders more potent in Dom II. I have no issue with that. However instead of making pretenders more potent... you guys diminished the potency of near everything else. Taking such a backwards approach has thrown a giant monkey wrench into the games balance. I know that you don't see it, and many players here who aren't familiar with Dom I don't understand, but IMHO it's pretty clear.

Making resources scarce has ripples of effect through the game. It detracts from light troops. It makes it hard to build forts. It makes mages hard to afford. Making it hard to do stuff, is not fun.

Meanwhile players will be inspired to build super combatant pretenders. In multiplay, the whole game is going to be a festival of giant pretenders going on rampages. Hey, I'm one of the biggest abUsers of this sort of strategy, and even I think it's going to get out of control. I want to choose between hard choices and paths. The current system is destined for 'Super combatant face off', and that's not fun.

Blood magic was diminished less than everything else even though it was a major problem in Dom I. What were you thinking? Limiting the super blood summons was good, but it's not limited enough. Still plenty of super combatant chassis to go around. Extra blood slaves can be used for "hordes from hell". HfH, by the way, is also going to be a major issue. Blood magic was too easy and too cheap, and your response was to make it easier and cheaper? I simply do not understand.

Death magic was not changed. Death summons cost the same, and death mages can still summon skels. Any reason that elemental magic got crushed, but death comes through with no change?

Wrathful skies. Did I not make it clear that this spell is an issue in Dom I? It's going to be much worse in Dom II. Having an enemy air mage cloud trapeze into my army and blow it away with wrathful skies... not fun.

Almost all evocations got nerfed, however I predict that the classic quickness-orb lightning, will be back in force.

The Seithkona nether darts problem will also make a return.

Meanwhile most other evocations have become stunningly inaccurate. It brings new meaning to the phrase "can't hit the broadside of a barn". Mages can't hit AN ARMY that is standing out in front of them with a fireball. OK can't is too strong... can't hit 4 of 5 times. Spells like flying shards and fire flies are jaw dropping as they fan out across the entire length of the battlefield! Funny, yes... but not fun.

High taxes destroying population in droves while low taxes have no effect. A design choice that I just cannot support. And not fun.

While the new interface is better than Dom I, it isn't very good. Certainly not up to standards set by other full priced games. If the game cost $30 then I wouldn't complain, but if you are charging big league prices then you get big league criticism. "It sucks less than Dom I" is not the same as "it's great!". The current Dom II interface is clunky and non-intuitive.

There's still no reason to take a fort other than wizards tower or fortified city.

Sorry that this post has become a bit of a rant. However the "feel" of Dom II is slow. The "low resouce model" exacerbates the problems with game imbalance since any issue means more since players have less.

Nobody was as big a Dominions fanboy as me, and I'm not upset because the system has changed. I am upset because I percieve that the system has changed for the worse.

It's not just me. I have a friend that cancelled his order after seeing the demo (and not becuase of input from me). My sizable gaming group who are all huge Dom I fans, are seriously questioning whether we should get involved with Dom II.

When push comes to shove, the gameplay of the demo is just not as much fun as the gameplay of Dom I, and I can see trends that will make it worse. Right now in the euphoria surrounding the better graphics and new release, players are being forgiving of the gameplay. When things calm down a bit, they will start to concentrate on game issues, and they will not be as happy as the Dom I community.

Again sorry for the rant, I should have written a more coherent essay. However since I spewed this, I might as well post it.

[ November 02, 2003, 04:19: Message edited by: apoger ]

[Saber Cherry]

I agree with a lot of what you said, though not as vehemently. But a lot of it is holdovers from DomI rather than negative changes. And the negative changes can mostly be remedied fairly easily, once they have been brought to IW's attention... if they are found to, in fact, be detrimental to the final game.

But this:

Apoger:
Blood magic was too easy and too cheap, and your response was to make it easier and cheaper? I simply do not understand.

...is flat-out wrong. No more SDR-scout slavers, and seemingly higher unrest incurrence... hmm. No, the blood economy is weaker, period. You have to hunt in many provinces, with expensive (and usually national) mages, not in one or two provinces, with cheap scouts.

Since most of what you said is relevant, but phrased in a harsh manner that Illwinter would not want to read, or would be immediately biased against just by its tone... you're kind of doing the community a disservice. Just like those zealous Christians who burn gays. Is Christianity good, or bad? I don't know, but those people sure turn me off from it, regardless of any virtues it may have.

So, if I were you, I'd rephrase it in a less confrontational manner.

-Cherry

[MStavros]

Originally posted by apoger:
>Are you honestly suggesting that the looks is the only thing that is improved in the game?

The looks and a few nice interface tweaks, such as the research pool.

Yup, that's it.

Beyond that is the gameplay, and frankly I think Dom I played better and was better balanced.


>As far as I can tell the replay speed, the scarcity of gold and its consequences is the only issue you have raised. Sure there might be balance issues in some cases but this was the case at the release of dom 1 as well.

Balance issues is putting it mildly.

Dom I was not about graphics or interface, obviously. What made Dom I great was a combination of incredible complexity and the balance between those complexities. In a game as massive as Dom I there were only a handfull of balance issues.

It seems that IW was intent on making pretenders more potent in Dom II. I have no issue with that. However instead of making pretenders more potent... you guys diminished the potency of near everything else. Taking such a backwards approach has thrown a giant monkey wrench into the games balance. I know that you don't see it, and many players here who aren't familiar with Dom I don't understand, but IMHO it's pretty clear.

Making resources scarce has ripples of effect through the game. It detracts from light troops. It makes it hard to build forts. It makes mages hard to afford. Making it hard to do stuff, is not fun.

Meanwhile players will be inspired to build super combatant pretenders. In multiplay, the whole game is going to be a festival of giant pretenders going on rampages. Hey, I'm one of the biggest abUsers of this sort of strategy, and even I think it's going to get out of control. I want to choose between hard choices and paths. The current system is destined for 'Super combatant face off', and that's not fun.

Blood magic was diminished less than everything else even though it was a major problem in Dom I. What were you thinking? Limiting the super blood summons was good, but it's not limited enough. Still plenty of super combatant chassis to go around. Extra blood slaves can be used for "hordes from hell". HfH, by the way, is also going to be a major issue. Blood magic was too easy and too cheap, and your response was to make it easier and cheaper? I simply do not understand.

Death magic was not changed. Death summons cost the same, and death mages can still summon skels. Any reason that elemental magic got crushed, but death comes through with no change?

Wrathful skies. Did I not make it clear that this spell is an issue in Dom I? It's going to be much worse in Dom II. Having an enemy air mage cloud trapeze into my army and blow it away with wrathful skies... not fun.

Almost all evocations got nerfed, however I predict that the classic quickness-orb lightning, will be back in force.

The Seithkona nether darts problem will also make a return.

Meanwhile most other evocations have become stunningly inaccurate. It brings new meaning to the phrase "can't hit the broadside of a barn". Mages can't hit AN ARMY that is standing out in front of them with a fireball. OK can't is too strong... can't hit 4 of 5 times. Spells like flying shards and fire flies are jaw dropping as they fan out across the entire length of the battlefield! Funny, yes... but not fun.

High taxes destroying population in droves while low taxes have no effect. A design choice that I just cannot support. And not fun.

While the new interface is better than Dom I, it isn't very good. Certainly not up to standards set by other full priced games. If the game cost $30 then I wouldn't complain, but if you are charging big league prices then you get big league criticism. "It sucks less than Dom I" is not the same as "it's great!". The current Dom II interface is clunky and non-intuitive.

There's still no reason to take a fort other than wizards tower or fortified city.

Sorry that this post has become a bit of a rant. However the "feel" of Dom II is slow. The "low resouce model" exacerbates the problems with game imbalance since any issue means more since players have less.

Nobody was as big a Dominions fanboy as me, and I'm not upset because the system has changed. I am upset because I percieve that the system has changed for the worse.

It's not just me. I have a friend that cancelled his order after seeing the demo (and not becuase of input from me). My sizable gaming group who are all huge Dom I fans, are seriously questioning whether we should get involved with Dom II.

When push comes to shove, the gameplay of the demo is just not as much fun as the gameplay of Dom I, and I can see trends that will make it worse. Right now in the euphoria surrounding the better graphics and new release, players are being forgiving of the gameplay. When things calm down a bit, they will start to concentrate on game issues, and they will not be as happy as the Dom I community.

Again sorry for the rant, I should have written a more coherent essay. However since I spewed this, I might as well post it.

I agree, good points..and you didn't even mentioned other things, like the strategic AI etc. etc.

Overall I am quite sad about the demo, maybe some patches will fix our problems. We shall see.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by apoger:
There's still no reason to take a fort other than wizards tower or fortified city.

Disagree. The Mausoleum and Watch Tower are good cheap picks for most setups. Compared to a Watch Tower, the Wizard Tower will give you, what, less than 20 more gold/turn with optimal scales? For 120 more design points? I'd certainly invest in a Wizard Tower with, say, Ulm/default - but that's the exception rather than the norm.

[Pocus]

I dont know if my opinion was asked (or even valued), but as I played doms I for one year and a half, here it is:

- the interface is far better, and does a good job in reducing the micromanagement, and accelerating the infos gathering. There is still some issues with it, but I can live without (sorting by column on the overview eg, etc.).

- many minors, or not so minors mechanisms have been improved in the right sense (cant use dousing rods with scouts, improved targetting AI in tac battle, etc etc.). In a sense doms II appears to have many refined mechanisms compared to doms I.

- Many new & good ideas (themes, blessing effects stemming from magic, individualized Demons Princes, etc.). This give a new feel to the game.

Now what I think is detrimental to the game (my major issues) :

- Toning down gold output emphazize even further on a combatting pretender at start. Such a pretender double your initial expansion speed, as you will have problem fielding, rapidly, several provinces-taking regular armies (in dominions I it was possible to have 2 such armies before turn 10).

- Super combattants problem far from being fixed.

- no speed replay in the tac engine. Battles can Last 15 minutes real time now, and I dont feel it is suitable to take a book each time I want to watch the end of a battle.

- Evocations spells wich dont affect the whole battlefield (except a few ones) are even less accurate, and as mages are rarer (not a bad thing per se), I suspect nobody will ever cast a fireball in competitive game environement.

[ November 02, 2003, 09:19: Message edited by: Pocus ]

[MStavros]

Originally posted by Pocus:

? Nice reply.

[Fyron]

When quoting really long Posts, please do not post the entire thing again... post the first line or two, followed by an ellipses (...). All it does is slow page loading times down, and forces everyone to scroll past a big chunk of material they already read. Thanks.