Is AI cheating ? - Page 2

-Storm- · #11 November 21st, 2003, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whismerhill:
Is AI cheating ?
knowing things AI shouldn't and acting as such?

perhaps I'm not lucky, but well .... AI seems to know where I will be the weakest at the next turn and move consequently

as I suppected this
I tried to 'save' the game (backup of the directory of the game
and replay with different configurations
and well ... if there's a weak point he'll always take it ....

or perhaps I'm not lucky ...

if that's really the case I would like to know to what extent the AI is cheating on each difficulty level

The AI doesn't cheat.

NTJedi · #12 November 21st, 2003, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wendigo:
I am pretty sure the Dom AI doesn't cheat in the Shogun way, it definitely doesn't know _where_ you are moving.

.....

What I believe it does know is where you are, and thus act acordingly if it sees a big force.

Wendigo is right... it does know where all your units are.
Yes I've seen this with sending powerful assassins or assassins with sneaking troops deep in enemy territory. Simply take a powerful assassin with 7 sneaking troops deep in enemy territory. Then find a territory which is not guarded. Now move your assassin onto that territory. You can then wait as long as you want.... but you will NEVER see that territory unguarded while your 'hidden troops' are their.
SO... in this way the AI opponent does cheat.

[ November 21, 2003, 08:42: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Rainbow · #13 November 21st, 2003, 11:18 AM

From my experience, the AI does not cheat. I have not caught it cheating yet playing on the difficult AI setting.

I find that the AI is somewhat predictable, and moderately sensible in the strategic play. It will not enter a province with a defending army that _appears_ to be superior to the invading army. It will almost always attack undefended provinces, making no assumptions about where the enemy armies move on the same turn (ie., it will not try to guess where your huge army in the neighbouring province will move, if anywhere, so you can usually catch the AI by shifting your army from the province it is in (seemingly heavily defended but actually undefended because the army moves out on the same turn attackers move in) to the seemingly undefended territory (which is actually heavily defended _if_ you move your army here, where it will arrive before the invading army).

As someone else wisely posted in another thread about how to defend borders: don't. Go and lay siege to his fortifications. He will be denied ressources to recruit more troops, and he will try to break the siege, regardless of his odds. Unless you are Ermor, this will probably require good supplies, so nature mages and nature magic items will help greatly. Also keep in mind that his dominion will probably be strong where he has fortifications,.. ah well, I digress.

Regarding using stealthed troops. I don't have sufficient experience with this to really offer some good comments, but examing the actual stealth ability of the units in question. I think there is a big difference between using units with stealth (+0) and stealth (+30). As long as you don't get caught, you shouldn't have to worry about armies that show up. Using some individual scout characters or scrying magic to scout ahead of a stealthy army should work well.

/Rainbow

NTJedi · #14 November 21st, 2003, 11:35 AM

Rainbow.... do more testing with sending powerful assassins or assassins with sneaking troops deep in enemy territory. The AI won't find and attack you BUT it will ALWAYS have troops to match whatever territory you are sitting on.

check out my previous post.

Teraswaerto · #15 November 21st, 2003, 11:49 AM

If the AI sees everything, why does it cast Eyes of God so often? Just for appearances sake?

NTJedi · #16 November 21st, 2003, 01:30 PM

The AI opponent obviously sees hidden assassins traveling deep behind enemy lines. Run that test I mentioned below and you will see.

As for "Eyes of God" the book clearly shows that this spell allows enemy scouts to be detected more easily and it also quells unrest for that Gods domain. So yes this would still be useful for AI opponents.

Whismerhill · #17 November 21st, 2003, 03:55 PM

well well well
here the test :
1 - create a game,
2 - try to have enough military to encircle one of his armies with strong or weak armies and also have a little gold to buy defence in every region the same amount

3 - save the game by quit & saving
4 - make a backup of this game by copying the folder whose name is the game name
5 - now return to the game and move your powerful & big armies to completely block his army
but only one way, with only defence on it
6 - end turn
7 - have it not attacked the weakest ?

8 - quit the game and recopy your backup over the current game folder in dominions 2 (thus overwriting turn files ...)

9 - repeat step 5 to 9, as much as you wish to
while changing the province that is weak...

10 - notice that the province always attacked is the weakest ?

PS: only tested on difficult settings with aran.map and all AI in the game.

Last note : I have done the test of assassin with a special abysian hero who has a original stealth of +25, the province has no army at all : attack it with your assassin ... oups there enough defence to kill him now !!!...
that's pretty strange isn't it ?

of course there is a limit to this I suppose cause, sometimes there is provinces you take undefended...
and well I suppose if the assassin where empowered to rainbow mage 10 and prophet, maybe it would have won the battle ...

with what said others, I'm convinced there's cheating OR let's say that dominions 2 has the power to read in my mind ...

Gandalf Parker · #18 November 21st, 2003, 04:21 PM

Another test might be to use the BattleSim (mini.map) edit it to give yourself alot more than the AI. More population, more gold, a couple of extra gem-producing sites, an extra starting army. Now build up for a couple of turns and then attack. Did the AI catch up to you?

Not that it would matter anyway, but it would be a test. Its not really a solo-play game so the AI cheating isnt a big deal. Everything has its pros and cons, everything is in scales. The scale of AI cheating balances the need for AI being challenging. Its still general opinion (including mine since I have tried abit) that you cannont make a human-challenging AI. The more options there are, the harder it gets.

The AI newsGroups generaly consider Galactic Civilizations and Capitalism II to be the games which are most focused on that target in case you are interested.

Kristoffer O · #19 November 21st, 2003, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NTJedi:
The AI opponent obviously sees hidden assassins traveling deep behind enemy lines. Run that test I mentioned below and you will see.

That is because your scouts do not see armies in the neighbouring provinces. Everywhere your scouts go they will only see armies in the same province. And the AI often has armies patrolling/moving through their own provinces. The AI does not know where you have your scouts unless he finds them by patrolling. Turns are hosted simultaneously and the AI turn is not different from yours, so it is impossible to make an AI that has knowledge of your moves.

Wendigo · #20 November 21st, 2003, 04:39 PM

Disclaimer: I have no problem with bonused AIs, I expect the AI in strategy games to be boosted if it has to put up a fight vs an experienced human player.

That said, I still insist the my experience doesn't match the one of the OP, the AI certainly fails at 'predicting' or being informed of my moves. Dunno if anything he does in his testing might tip his results (building local def?), but I have one to propose myself:

-Let the enemy AI siege one of your forts, let it build up the sieging force while you round up a massive flying relief force a couple provinces away (or a boosted SC flying pretender). Attack the sieging force & waste them. If the AI knew that your uberpretender was coming, why would it keep its army there mantaining the siege?