Oh...my....GODS!!!

[Norfleet]

Okay, here you go:
http://pheak.kludgemush.com/~fishman/dom2mods.zip

Cheat Detect disabled. Note that for any prospective MP cheaters reading this, this will not enable you to cheat in multiplayer unless you host your own game: This only allows the hosting of mods, or cheating in single-player: Clients do not require this to play mods, only the host requires it.

[ January 14, 2004, 04:38: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Miles]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Okay, here you go:
http://pheak.kludgemush.com/~fishman/dom2mods.zip

Cheat Detect disabled. Note that for any prospective MP cheaters reading this, this will not enable you to cheat in multiplayer unless you host your own game: This only allows the hosting of mods, or cheating in single-player: Clients do not require this to play mods, only the host requires it.

Well, now. When I unpack that, it looks like a Windows executable. I will have to add: "Linux game players are less likely to cheat in multiplayer games" to my list of reasons for switching to Linux.

This doesn't really fix the underlying problem. It seems to me that the REAL problem is that cheat detection has slight benefit for Multiplayer games. However, it harms Singleplayer games.

If this trend continues (favoring the interests of Multiplayer to the detriment of Singleplayer) it could cause serious damage to the future of the game.

I think this problem should be openly faced and dealt with. I believe that Dom2 is currently limited because ALL games are treated as multiplayer games. The most obvious place to start is to add options to the game setup screen that allow you to setup types of games that favor single or multiple play.

Game setup options that I think would help include:

• Enable/Disable Cheat detection
• Number of simultaneous global spells
• Enable/Disable unbalancing spells
• Enable/Disable unbalancing Units
• Enable/Disable unbalancing Gods
• Enable/Disable unbalancing Nations
• Enable/Disable unbalancing sites
• Enable/Disable unbalancing events

Anywho, you get the idea. In many ways, a multiplayer game is boring in single play. Multiplayer games normally never allow any single event to really alter the progress of the game. All factions in Multiplayer games have to be roughly equal. You can't play a very strong side. You can't play a very weak side. The game can't be very unpredictable. Games usually drag on LONG after the result is apparent because the game doesn't allow a side to collect or deploy overwhelming power.

But, Dom2 really NEEDS a strong singleplayer game. Most of the consumers will never multiplay. Without strong singleplay, Dom2 will get bad 'word-of-mouth'. Most of the multiplayers will be recruited from singleplayers. Without compelling reasons to singleplay, the numbers of multiplayers will be severely limited.

I have been playing Dom2 since it came out. Before that, I played Dom1 for months. I still play MOM. I still find Dom2's singleplayer game very enjoyable. But, I think it could use some improvement. I suppose that I could try multiplayer. But, my schedule never seems to be that predictable.

Sorry for the long post.

Thanks for the great game.

Miles

[ January 14, 2004, 18:50: Message edited by: Miles ]

[Gandalf Parker]

If this trend continues (favoring the interests of Multiplayer to the detriment of Singleplayer) it could cause serious damage to the future of the game.

I think this problem should be openly faced and dealt with. I believe that Dom2 is currently limited because ALL games are treated as multiplayer games

Im 95% single player. And would love to see the devs decide to do something along the line of some of these suggestions. But I cant doomsay it as something that must be fixed or it will seriously hurt the game. The game is an MP PBEM game. At least they dont treat solo play as barely a tutorial walkthru and nothing else.

[Dekent]

I also belive they should focus on single player aspects above multiplayer. Anyone shocked? hehe...

I don't have any hard numbers, but as with other games I'm sure most people play single player for the most part. Even if the devs intend for it to be a multigame I wish they would consider changes to the single player first and foremost. Having a way for the game to distinguish between solo and mutligames would go a long way (which would allow that damn host button to go away ;p)

Considering when you balance for MP you balance for SP as well but the opposite is not true.

I can't quite see the big stir from people crying "Oh it's never about SP, it's all MP" when your problem (Making out of control pretenders) was fixed within 2 days after the patch release by a 3rd Party while retaining the MP balance of not having cheaters.

It's MP, Modability, Balance, Customer Support, etc, etc that keep people playing the game and more importantly buying the game.

I'd love to see some AI updates, Diplomacy and other SP features in the game, but I don't think you'd have the game you have now (so deep and diverse) if they thought about SP first. They'd be thinking about making 'campaigns' and other things that would, over time, kill the MP aspect.

[johan osterman]

None of us, illwinter and associates, play single player strategy games to any significant extent. Dominions 2 is the way it is to a very large extent due to that it is a game that is enjoyable for its makers to test while it is being made. I think you are better of making a game you enjoy yourself rather then trying to create a game for someone else. Dom 2 is essentially a labour of love, and illwinter happens to love multi player games more than single player games. I am not saying that the SP aspect should or will be ignored, just that there is a dom 2 at all because JK and Kristoffer enjoyed making it, and they would not have enjoyed making a single player game, so it is very unlikely that SP gameplay will ever take precedence over MP gameplay, even if it would be more market savvy to go in that direction. Furthermore, as zen pointed out, most of the additions that work for MP work for SP as well. I hope no one will be offended by this, as some people previously were, for both the strengths and flaws of dominions is derived of this approach. Illwinter does not and can not operate as a major design studio does, whether dom 2 fans would like it to or not.

[ January 15, 2004, 00:55: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

[Miles]

Originally posted by Zen:
Considering when you balance for MP you balance for SP as well but the opposite is not true.

It is not true in either direction. However, the Dom2 result has been quite pleasing.

I can't quite see the big stir from people crying "Oh it's never about SP, it's all MP" when your problem (Making out of control pretenders) was fixed within 2 days after the patch release by a 3rd Party while retaining the MP balance of not having cheaters.

Well. It is not fixed for >ME<. The fix is a Windows executable. I use Linux. But more to the point, your term 'out of control pretenders' illustrates the real problem. In my single-player games, I can assure you that those pretenders never did anything I didn't wish them to. I just wish that they would do more. And I miss them. IT IS NOT THE SAME AS MULTIPLAYER.

It's MP, Modability, Balance, Customer Support, etc, etc that keep people playing the game and more importantly buying the game.

Please don't think that I dislike the game. I love it. However, you have to realize the it doesn't really have singleplayer. It is ALWAYS multiplayer. Sometimes you play with humans. Sometimes you play with AI's. It works REALLY well, when the AI's pass the Turing test and are indistinguishable from humans. But, when the AI's fail the test, playing without humans can suck.

It would really help to provide better singleplayer crutches so we don't lose huge numbers of customers.

Modding has done wonders already for me. I am having a ball creating a custom Nation. I love the 'poke-in-the-eye' maps. They introduce variety and newness to gameplay.

However, both seem to be a response to fundamental problems in single-user play.

I guess I am just greedy. Still, I am sure that I am not alone. I am sure that the majority of the purchasers of Dom2 will never do multiplay OR post to this forum.

Miles