Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?

[calmon]

Originally posted by Reverend Zombie:
There's a difference between being bored because everyone is using something they think is uber, and that thing actually being uber.

"Everyone" is using her because she is (far) the best SC in game in moment. Immortal, flying (fast) and stealthy.

She is good at the start of a game, because she can fight armies alone without fearing dead. She stops invading armies more or less easily in own dominion. If she fear an attack she just use 'hide' to prevent any (even teleport) battles. In lategame power and magic power - wish boost counts double and more for an immortal character (this can be a wished VQ too). Its better to invest in immortals then in others. Some more points are her ethereality, good resistants, regeneration, free vampires and her complete armable body. She is the chasis with most combinations of good attributes.

[ May 06, 2004, 23:41: Message edited by: calmon ]

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Well, the ultimate question about VQs is this:

Do VQs, independently of their players, win games? Does choosing the VQ mean you are far more likely to win against anyone who does NOT choose one, independently of how good you are, or how good he is? If so, then VQs would definitely be unbalanced.
....

Nah, these all are totally irrelivent questions. The only question that need to be asked, is if VQ significantly more powerfull SC than other pretenders in MP games? If yes, than perhaps it should be toned down a little (but IMHO not too much, the concept of VQ is cool ). If not, than it should be left alone. The considerations "If VQ enough to win the game by itself, blah-blah-blah" are obviously irrelivent to the issue of balance.

[Slygar]

Just gotta say it: This whole arguement seems so ridiculous. I mean, why would we need to submit success data to determine if the VQ is actually overpowered? I mean, just look at it, and compare it to any other same-priced pretender. Even ones that cost more dont compare (father of serpents, for example.) And you can't forget the free vampires, which is one of my favorite things about the VQ when I play it (I find them very useful as a rearstrike force, once there are 20+ of them.. especially against AI. Ethereal + Immortal = fun)

I saw it right away, my first game of Dom ii was Abysia with a VQ. I can't imagine that there are people that actually think it is balanced, although fun to play, I admit.

[Jondifool]

Now that was a good reply Norfolk. ( must say I don't like the title of this topic)

if I understands you correct
The Vampire Queens "power" lays in the easyness she is turned into a cockie cutter pretender!

you could be right ( i am not experienced enough to say). But I still see a problem with her then.

She is to much of a challange for a newbie to counter! (though some answers finally does shows up).

this Cockie cutter might be unavoidble, but certainly not fortunate! The Vampire Queen is a newbie basher. And as a newbie I am ready to take my beatings and learn this game, but I don't look forward to get beaten by a cookie cutter!

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Slygar:
Just gotta say it: This whole arguement seems so ridiculous. I mean, why would we need to submit success data to determine if the VQ is actually overpowered? I mean, just look at it, and compare it to any other same-priced pretender. Even ones that cost more dont compare (father of serpents, for example.) And you can't forget the free vampires, which is one of my favorite things about the VQ when I play it (I find them very useful as a rearstrike force, once there are 20+ of them.. especially against AI. Ethereal + Immortal = fun)

I saw it right away, my first game of Dom ii was Abysia with a VQ. I can't imagine that there are people that actually think it is balanced, although fun to play, I admit.

But why does a Super Combat god have to be nerfed? This isnt Immortal Kombat. Does that mean that the super rainbow is next? or the best god for harassment? support? defense?

No one is doubting that she is high in the combat god Category but will lowering her help? And we seem to still be seeing more agreement on her faults then suggestions on what to do. What changes wont put the Ghost King next on the list? As a combat god you cant make her equal to Wyrm or Nataraja

[Kel]

The sad part is the players don't even agree on what 'over-powered' means.

Some people think over-powered means she is above the power average.

Some people think that if she isn't invincible, she isn't over-powered.

No-one wants to use each others language so everyone goes in circles, repeating themselves. Perhaps people need to agree on definitions before they do anything.

- Kel

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Jondifool:
if I understands you correct
The Vampire Queens "power" lays in the easyness she is turned into a cockie cutter pretender!

Not merely a "cookie cutter pretender", but the ease with which she can be built into a number of SCs. Is this a BAD thing, though? After all, the VQ is useful really, for just that one thing. Her innate magics are not conducive towards any kind of a bless effect that is of much use: neither the death nor blood blessings are of much use in general, and focussing on either death or blood will more or less gut her ability as an SC. Trying to turn her into a truly potent SC is so expensive in points, that even playing strong dominion with scales is really not a sound plan with her. If you it half-assed, the VQ isn't really an impressive fighter at all.

So you can turn the VQ into one really useful thing only: A squasher of regular armies (and newbies). Of course, the ability to squash newbies is a meaningless trick: Newbies, are, by definition, bad at the game, and trying to balance the game for people who are BAD at it, rather than concentrating on what SKILLED play looks like, is a recipe for a boring game with no depth.

So in the end, at great cost in nation points, the VQ can be turned into a single, highly potent SC, that is not, by any means, even close to unstoppable, as a wide variety of easily available countermeasures exist. Is that really such a problem?