Can I get some cheese with that...

[Kel]

I think the initial post is a bit inflammatory and unneccessarily one sided. Normally, I wouldn't post in response to one person's point of view but your post was a good example of one extreme 'side' of every balance argument that goes on so I wanted to post my thoughts. This isn't aimed at you so much as the statements that are represented here (which you happened to make in this case).

Originally posted by Reverend Zombie:
Well, the current whine du jour seems to have moved off somewhat from VQs and clam hoarding to "castle spamming."

People said what they had to say. Is it a whine du jour because they didn't keep beating it into the ground for a month ? Those people still feel that way so calling it a whine du jour lacks foundation and is inflammatory (as opposed to if it was inflammatory but had a valid point behind it). Would it be better if they said something about it EVERY day of every week of every month so it would no longer be a whine of the day ?

Whether or not any of these activities may be broken, why does it seem that the first reaction of people unhappy with these is to propose nerfs, rather than strategies to deal with the tactics in question?

Why does it seem that the first reaction of people that use the strategies is to call everyone else a whiner or a newbie rather than make a point about the actual subject ?

Or has everyone proposing nerfs done extensive testing of the various strategies and proven that they can't be beaten?

Representing extremes is fine lawyering and good drama but it isn't really fair. Don't you think it is likely that the truth is in the middle ? That *most* people probably have tried several different things but it was neither their 'first reaction' nor have they done 'extensive testing and proven they can't be beaten' ? Honestly, don't you think the truth is in the middle here ? Do you really think that every complaint comes from a single game experience ?

And if it can be beaten, why would people equate that with it being balanced, other than that they have run out of logic ? I mean, if you want to use that argument, every single unit in the game is exactly as good as every other unit because there are open ended dice rolls and anyone could win any combat at any specific time.

Or are some players just wishing that the game was designed differently--to suit the fact that they don't like playing against a given strategy?

I think it is inappropriately disrespectful to assume that everyone who brings up a balance discussion is wrong, not because of specific points but rather to dismiss them and assume negative character traits about their personalities. Why do they all have to have ulterior motives, based on being weak willed, rash and whiny ? I mean, that is basically the answer that some people use for every balance discussion.

Tthis is probably true in some cases, don't get me wrong, just as there are people on the OTHER side who don't want changes in their game for the *exact* same reasons. For either side to dismiss arguments based on anything other than actual, valid points, on the subject itself, demonstrates both a lack of respect and a losing argument, imo.

- Kel

Thank you for enduring my brief rant.

[JJ_Colorado]

Kel - nice post.

I agree. The constant superior attitude, arrogance, and cynicism of some posters gets old. Sure there is some whining but I think some of the points raised about DOM2 play balance are valid and they get grouped immediately into the "whining" Category. Whatever.

--John


P.S. What is this "we don't suffer fools" cr*p? Get off your high horses. Sheesh.


[ May 27, 2004, 06:00: Message edited by: JJ_Colorado ]

[Yossar]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
I think I've just had a revelation.

If labs were more expensive, requiring you to plan out which of your provinces will become magical centers, you can effectively stop Norfleet's mage-dependant strategy, right?

Not especially. You only need one lab to summon and forge and you don't need that many to hire mages. Although, maybe Norfleet is hiring more mages than I expect. It would hinder teleporting SCs but most of them can fly which is almost as good. Expensive labs would also break any nation that depended on lots of cheap mages - R'lyeh, Abysia Blood of Humans, etc.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Kel:
Is it a whine du jour because they didn't keep beating it into the ground for a month ?

The reason it's a "whine du jour" is because it only recently appeared. If it was an actual, serious issue, it would have been apparent for a long time, but because it only appears shortly after somebody dishes out a merciless beating to the aforementioned whining party, it's a "whine du jour": There aren't even people who can reproduce the results.

For instance, consider the current whine-du-jour: castle-spamming: how many people do it and are actually SUCCESSFUL? Of the people who complain about it, how many of them were introduced to it by being my victim....and if it's so great and wonderful, why are more people not doing it with better success?

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
and if it's so great and wonderful, why are more people not doing it with better success? [/QB]

The answer to this is actually quite simple, but it may be difficult for you to uderstand Norfleet. (no insult intended here, but I think you just don't think in the same way as most of the other people who play Dom2. )


You see, lot of people (fortunately) don't want to use your strategy. You are obviously under impression that all people play this game just like you Norfleet - to win at all cost, using every exploit allowed by game mechanics. No tactic is too cheesy, abusive or boring for you as long as it allows you to win the game.


The truth however, is that a lot of people don't want to use your lame strategy, no matter how efficient it is. They are playing this game to have fun first, and the wining is secondary.


I don't think you can understand this idea though, since for you using same exploits in every game seem _to be_ fun. But for other people it is not. That's why they are creating houserules to prevent known abuses and preserve interesting and differnt gameplay, instead of having 16 VQs playing mad castling and clam hoarding just like you do.


I think you can be considered to be beneficial to the community, from certain point of view, since you seem to be pretty good in finding exploits and pushing them to the limit. Maybe developers will notice it and do something about it in next patches. If not, there are always houserules, which are being used more and more every week. The harder and more often you and your copycats will use your strategy, the stronger the rejection reaction will become, and the more often games will be created to prevent the abusive strategy that you are using.

Obvioulsy you may flatter yourself thinking that this houserules are created to prevent _you_ in game, since you are so good. But you are clearly wrong, and you can easely see it for yourslef, if you want proof for it - I'll tell you how.


Asking "why I can beat people who are using the same exploits as I do " is meaningless. Instead try for once beat competent opponents _not_ using your only strategy, but trying anything else. If you win, that it'll be the best and only proof that you are wining not because of you standard exploitive strategy but because you are actually strong player on your own, and I'll publicly admit it myslef. But frankly I don't think you will, based upon what what I saw in our Last game.


I do not deny that you have knowledge of the game, but so are many other people on this forum. 95% of your success though comes from your only exploitive strategy, that you perfected. Of course you don't want to admit it, since it would deflate your huge ego. Frankly if I would be in your shoes I would find it extremely boring and mindboggling, but you seem to be geting thrill from just wining the games no matter how, and that overweigh everything else.

*shrug*

[ May 27, 2004, 09:16: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
You see, lot of people (fortunately) don't want to use your strategy.

Perhaps you believe that, but the truth is, I've seen people attempting to adopt it...and getting nowhere with it. I am not the only VQ player. I am not the only castle-builder....but I'm the only one who does well with it. Why is that?

Instead try for once beat competent opponents _not_ using your only strategy, but trying anything else.

You mean, like, say, a water-9 Vanheim bless strategy? Just won a game with that. No VQ involved.

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
You see, lot of people (fortunately) don't want to use your strategy.

Perhaps you believe that,

---

It doesn't matter that much what I believe, it's what more and more people believe. As you can see a lot of people are creating games with houserules to specifically prevent the very same exploits you are using. (not to mention specifically baring you for cheating and dishonest behaviour, but that's completely different matter )


Literally speaking you are diging your own grave by making your exploits more and more prominent, and I think that it's a good thing for Dom2 community.

but the truth is, I've seen people attempting to adopt it...and getting nowhere with it. I am not the only VQ player. I am not the only castle-builder....but I'm the only one who does well with it. Why is that?

*shrug* Because you are more experienced with your exploits than other exploiters who are copycating it from you? Is this something to be proud of?

I told you already, it doesn't prove anything. YOU have to beat other competent players by NOT using some combination of your standard madcastling+VQ+clamshoarding. That will be the strong and the only proof that you are wining not because of your lame exploits. Nothing else can archieve such results. It's simple logic, I don't know why are you not geting it.

Instead try for once beat competent opponents _not_ using your only strategy, but trying anything else.

You mean, like, say, a water-9 Vanheim bless strategy? Just won a game with that. No VQ involved.

You forgot to mention mad castling. Did you play without it as well?

[ May 27, 2004, 09:41: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]