Can I get some cheese with that...

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
and if it's so great and wonderful, why are more people not doing it with better success? [/QB]

The answer to this is actually quite simple, but it may be difficult for you to uderstand Norfleet. (no insult intended here, but I think you just don't think in the same way as most of the other people who play Dom2. )


You see, lot of people (fortunately) don't want to use your strategy. You are obviously under impression that all people play this game just like you Norfleet - to win at all cost, using every exploit allowed by game mechanics. No tactic is too cheesy, abusive or boring for you as long as it allows you to win the game.


The truth however, is that a lot of people don't want to use your lame strategy, no matter how efficient it is. They are playing this game to have fun first, and the wining is secondary.


I don't think you can understand this idea though, since for you using same exploits in every game seem _to be_ fun. But for other people it is not. That's why they are creating houserules to prevent known abuses and preserve interesting and differnt gameplay, instead of having 16 VQs playing mad castling and clam hoarding just like you do.


I think you can be considered to be beneficial to the community, from certain point of view, since you seem to be pretty good in finding exploits and pushing them to the limit. Maybe developers will notice it and do something about it in next patches. If not, there are always houserules, which are being used more and more every week. The harder and more often you and your copycats will use your strategy, the stronger the rejection reaction will become, and the more often games will be created to prevent the abusive strategy that you are using.

Obvioulsy you may flatter yourself thinking that this houserules are created to prevent _you_ in game, since you are so good. But you are clearly wrong, and you can easely see it for yourslef, if you want proof for it - I'll tell you how.


Asking "why I can beat people who are using the same exploits as I do " is meaningless. Instead try for once beat competent opponents _not_ using your only strategy, but trying anything else. If you win, that it'll be the best and only proof that you are wining not because of you standard exploitive strategy but because you are actually strong player on your own, and I'll publicly admit it myslef. But frankly I don't think you will, based upon what what I saw in our Last game.


I do not deny that you have knowledge of the game, but so are many other people on this forum. 95% of your success though comes from your only exploitive strategy, that you perfected. Of course you don't want to admit it, since it would deflate your huge ego. Frankly if I would be in your shoes I would find it extremely boring and mindboggling, but you seem to be geting thrill from just wining the games no matter how, and that overweigh everything else.

*shrug*

[ May 27, 2004, 09:16: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
You see, lot of people (fortunately) don't want to use your strategy.

Perhaps you believe that, but the truth is, I've seen people attempting to adopt it...and getting nowhere with it. I am not the only VQ player. I am not the only castle-builder....but I'm the only one who does well with it. Why is that?

Instead try for once beat competent opponents _not_ using your only strategy, but trying anything else.

You mean, like, say, a water-9 Vanheim bless strategy? Just won a game with that. No VQ involved.

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
You see, lot of people (fortunately) don't want to use your strategy.

Perhaps you believe that,

---

It doesn't matter that much what I believe, it's what more and more people believe. As you can see a lot of people are creating games with houserules to specifically prevent the very same exploits you are using. (not to mention specifically baring you for cheating and dishonest behaviour, but that's completely different matter )


Literally speaking you are diging your own grave by making your exploits more and more prominent, and I think that it's a good thing for Dom2 community.

but the truth is, I've seen people attempting to adopt it...and getting nowhere with it. I am not the only VQ player. I am not the only castle-builder....but I'm the only one who does well with it. Why is that?

*shrug* Because you are more experienced with your exploits than other exploiters who are copycating it from you? Is this something to be proud of?

I told you already, it doesn't prove anything. YOU have to beat other competent players by NOT using some combination of your standard madcastling+VQ+clamshoarding. That will be the strong and the only proof that you are wining not because of your lame exploits. Nothing else can archieve such results. It's simple logic, I don't know why are you not geting it.

Instead try for once beat competent opponents _not_ using your only strategy, but trying anything else.

You mean, like, say, a water-9 Vanheim bless strategy? Just won a game with that. No VQ involved.

You forgot to mention mad castling. Did you play without it as well?

[ May 27, 2004, 09:41: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
You forgot to mention mad castling. Did you play without it as well?

The castles were built to keep out pesky enemy VQs, since everyone knows vampires can't come inside unless they're invited. Besides, what ELSE would you build in a province? Temples would explode constantly. Plus that annoying sacred troop limit requires castles to enable their churn-out, temples to increase the rate at which they can be churned out...and castles again to protect said temples.

Everything in Dom2 boils down to those temples, after all, and when your production bandwidth depends on those temples, even losing control of one temporarily as suggested in a proposed solution would be unacceptable.

[ May 27, 2004, 09:41: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Stormbinder:
[qb]You forgot to mention mad castling. Did you play without it as well?

The castles were built to keep out pesky enemy VQs

---

So much for playing differently and proving the point. Whom do you think you are fooling?

[ May 27, 2004, 09:54: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[Kel]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kel:
Is it a whine du jour because they didn't keep beating it into the ground for a month ?

The reason it's a "whine du jour" is because it only recently appeared.

---

That really isn't evidence to dismiss something without giving it any more thought than that. Everything that occurs...occurs for a first time at some point.

New strategies can reveal new problems. They should be given consideration on their merits or lack thereof.

- Kel

So if suddenly everyone starts playing games with House Rules that you can't play with Undead then suddenly Undead are overpowered?

Norfleet's 'strategies' get the incredible whine factor because they take the fun out of the game in as much it becomes a grind to play. That can happen with any game, many of which are balanced. Certain extremes will always be boring and more effort than is fun to play.

That doesn't mean it's inbalanced, only that it creates a situation of frustration to the point of not playing because it's more aggrivating than fun.

That is not a balance issue that is just someone using their advantage of playing a mind-numbingly boring style in order to eventually frustrate and have people quit instead of actually fighting.

Edit: For a very visible Example: Imagine playing D&D and you're the type of player who plays less about the rules and more about the roleplaying and other aspects and on the other end of the table you are playing with 4-5 Rules Lawyers with Books Strapped to their hands and a sour disposition to the way their character is going. Every minute is an instant bickerfest about any and every interpretation.

[ May 27, 2004, 13:59: Message edited by: Zen ]