Golden Age Arcoscephale

[Blitz]

quote:
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Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Of course it has redeeming qualities. It has earthpower, invulnerability, luck, body ethereal, and astral shield. It's also a flying trampler, which allows it to smash normal armies.
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Well, yeah, as long as said normal army can be broken in less than 10-15 tramples. Even Earthpower can't compensate for the enormous fatigue of trampling: I had messenger boots, a resilience amulet, and earthpower all running at once on a Fat Momma. She still fatigued out. Not cool.

Read what Norfleet said again. You just don't get it do you?

[ June 21, 2004, 00:59: Message edited by: Blitz ]

[Scott Hebert]

A few things people have missed about the Shedu that I think bear mentioning:

1) It's unique in that it is the only Pretender in the game to get both Earth and Astral magic naturally. This means that, if you want high Dominion, Earth magic, and Astral magic, he is the best choice for pretender.

2) He plays into the natural strengths of GE Arco. Magical research is one of GE's best strengths. Another is the fact that it gets Air, Earth, and Astral gems naturally. This allows for synergy.

3) He is a very multifaceted Pretender, for being a nonhumanoid. Early-game, he _can_ take provinces. Mid-game, he can research, site-search, forge Crystal Coins, Dwarven Hammers, and other utility items. Late-game, he can be a Golem factory or continue in the mid-game roles.

4) His blessings are very mage-friendly. While it's true that Arco gets no 'real' sacred mages, there is always the Shroud of the Battle Saint. You have to decide if Reinvigoration + Magic Resistance on Armor that costs 5S is good enough for you, though.

Do I think all of this warrants his cost? Well, I think he may be overpriced. Bringing him down to 75 (to equal the Great Mother) might be a good idea. I will point out, though, that no one can beat him in his bailiwick, not even the human pretenders, and he's far more survivable than even the giants.

Consider the following Pretender:

Pretender: Shedu
Cost: 125
Scales: Order3 Sloth1 Growth1 Magic1
Cost: 160
Fort: Castle
Cost: 80
Paths: Earth 4 Astral 4
Cost: 96
Dominion: 5
Cost: 21
Total Cost: 125 + 160 + 80 + 96 + 21 = 482

Note this is without taking Misfortune, and taking Growth-1 (which I'm sure most people would find a waste).

This would make the Shroud:
5 Prot
0 Enc
+3 MRL (this isn't going to do much)
Reinvig 2
+1 MR

For 5 Astral Pearls. This path selection would also directly benefit any sacred mages you run across (Amazon Priestesses, Shamen, Witches, etc.).

Should the Shedu be lowered to 75 points, I could afford one more scale and a 6 Dominion. If I took Misfortune-2, I could go to Earth-6, increasing the bless effect and making the effect of some 'Construction summons' (Enliven Statues) more effect.

In any event, I think the Shedu offers more than people are seeing right now.

[Blitz]

Consider the following Pretender:

Pretender: Shedu
Cost: 125
Scales: Order3 Sloth1 Growth1 Magic1
Cost: 160
Fort: Castle
Cost: 80
Paths: Earth 4 Astral 4
Cost: 96
Dominion: 5
Cost: 21
Total Cost: 125 + 160 + 80 + 96 + 21 = 482

Pretender: Nataraja
Cost: Squat
Scales: Order 3 Sloth 1 Growth 1 Magic 1
Cost: 160
Fort: Castle
Cost: 80
Paths: Earth 4 Astral 4
Cost: 222
Dominion: 5
Cost: 21

Total Cost: 0 + 160 + 80 + 244 + 21 = 505

Cut 5 points off your design and you can have the 4-armed beatdown of death. Dunno about you, but I'd rather have a fortress and the Natty. Of course with 4 astral you may as well take an immobile, for all the good he'll do outside the capitol.

[ June 21, 2004, 02:13: Message edited by: Blitz ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Blitz:
Cut 5 points off your design and you can have the 4-armed beatdown of death. Dunno about you, but I'd rather have a fortress and the Natty. Of course with 4 astral you may as well take an immobile, for all the good he'll do outside the capitol.

You both picked the same castle, and the nataraja is certainly not as useful in the early game as the Shedu. That's why I'm still wondering what, exactly are the game parameters that you are using to determine that it is never worthwhile. What about a 3 player VP game on Brittain for example?

[Blitz]

Or lol even better...

Pretender: Wurm
Cost: 75
Scales: Order 3 Sloth 1 Growth 1 Magic 1
Cost: 160
Fort: Castle
Cost: 80
Paths: Air 1 Nature 1
Cost: 100
Dominion: 5
Cost: 21

Total cost: 426 points (spend the rest as you wish)

Now you got a much better expander, and later in the game he can sit in the lab and forge rainbow armor instead of shroud of the battle saint!

That's why I'm still wondering what, exactly are the game parameters that you are using to determine that it is never worthwhile.

He's trying to demonstrate that in order to get a earth 4 /astral 4 blessing on your mystics through use of a shroud of the battle saint, the Shedu is the best pretender choice. Why one would go to such lengths to achieve such a thing is irrelevant. Clearly the Nataraja is superior, even under the conditions most favorable to the Shedu. You could also achieve similar results with a Son of the Sun (the astral Version), which is of course available to arcoscophile.

No, even when seeking the allpowerful earth/astral blessing, the Shedu still sucks. Sorry.

[ June 21, 2004, 02:40: Message edited by: Blitz ]

[PvK]

Originally posted by Blitz:

quote:

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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Of course it has redeeming qualities. It has earthpower, invulnerability, luck, body ethereal, and astral shield. It's also a flying trampler, which allows it to smash normal armies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, yeah, as long as said normal army can be broken in less than 10-15 tramples. Even Earthpower can't compensate for the enormous fatigue of trampling: I had messenger boots, a resilience amulet, and earthpower all running at once on a Fat Momma. She still fatigued out. Not cool.

Read what Norfleet said again. You just don't get it do you?

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I get it. But that is why you don't send big tramplers in alone - you send them accompanied by other very good units, to add to the carnage.

PvK

[PvK]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
... Also, if everyone is set to guard commander, the entire group routs the moment somebody bites it. And somebody will probably bite it that way. ...

I've never noticed that kind of problem. Seems like Groups of units on Guard Commander are no more likely to rout on losses than Groups with any other kind of orders.

PvK