A prioritized and hopefully realistic Wish List for 2.13

[Wendigo]

Lifedraining weapons are not a must have, they are just a simple answer to the need to plan for life & fatigue restoring in a SC, but you can get those through many other different ways.

In fact, in SC dueling I would rather class them as suboptimal, unless wielded by a *very* high strength critter.

They excel at mopping standard troops, but that's about it.

[ July 16, 2004, 09:46: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Boron:
in dominions 2 i have to little expierience yet . but as someone stated against lifeless creatures it is not working . how does this exactly work ?
do you still do damage but not refresh life or do you even do no damage ?

Damage is caused, but fatigue and health are not replenished.

Originally posted by Wendigo:
Lifedraining weapons are not a must have, they are just a simple answer to the need to plan for life & fatigue restoring in a SC, but you can get those through many other different ways.

This is true, although many more item slots may be required for this: To substitute for not using lifedrain, you need both reinvigoration in excess of the unit's modified encumberance rating, and you need a whackload of regeneration.

In fact, in SC dueling I would rather class them as suboptimal, unless wielded by a *very* high strength critter.

In SC duelling, fights are typically short and brutal, so endurance in the form of perpetual reinvigoration is a nonissue. Of course, this just underscores the idea that tanks and tank-killers, are similar, yet have different requirements. A tank, being your typical SC, requires a weapon that is flexible and useful on the a variety of targets that it may encounter. A tank-killer, an anti-SC, only needs to be able to destroy tanks.

[Wendigo]

On gaining regeneration & reinvigoration through other means:

This is true, although many more item slots may be required for this: To substitute for not using lifedrain, you need both reinvigoration in excess of the unit's modified encumberance rating, and you need a whackload of regeneration.

Or no items slots at all, as you can gain both externally from spells, while using your slots for duelling gear.

In SC duelling, fights are typically short and brutal, so endurance in the form of perpetual reinvigoration is a nonissue. Of course, this just underscores the idea that tanks and tank-killers, are similar, yet have different requirements. A tank, being your typical SC, requires a weapon that is flexible and useful on the a variety of targets that it may encounter. A tank-killer, an anti-SC, only needs to be able to destroy tanks.

Indeed. Getting into the fight with no fatigue certainly helps (no penalties to att, deff & chance of armour piercing hit), but once you are hacking at each other it's mostly about att vs def, and damage yielded vs protection...and there are better weapons for that than the lifedraining ones, even at lower research levels.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Wendigo:
Or no items slots at all, as you can gain both externally from spells, while using your slots for duelling gear.

Certainly this is viable, but oftentimes a good tank-killer is most likely to get his best hits in if he can strike before his opponent has raised a whackload of spell defenses of his own.

Plus if you're choosing external spells instead, well, regeneration comes from nature, the only reinvigoration option comes from Earth....which may or may not be enough, depending on his encumberances after armor and quickness are factored in. Lifedrain can also be had through external spells, which, helpfully, addresses both of these problems at once, so invoking external spells is still not really the answer: Lifedrain can be had for one spell, getting regeneration and reinvigoration requires two. You're simply trading off your limited 5 spell slots instead of your item slots, and lifedrain still requires fewer.

Of course, a pure anti-SC may simply opt to do without: After all, he doesn't need to be able to take out enemy armies, he just needs to be able to take out enemy SCs. After that, his mission is accomplished.

[Wendigo]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
oftentimes a good tank-killer is most likely to get his best hits in if he can strike before his opponent has raised a whackload of spell defenses of his own.[/QB]

Different aproaches, a superior build (because of its specialization) is as viable as a first strike build, they just work differently.

You're simply trading off your limited 5 spell slots instead of your item slots, and lifedrain still requires fewer.
[/QB]

Not necessarily, as you can get those spells from other mages. It is my experience that a SC (or even a group of SCs!), do not stand a chance vs a small army consisting of a duellist SC plus a few supporting mages.

We seem to agree on all the rest, so I am edditing it out.

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Wendigo:
On gaining regeneration & reinvigoration through other means:

quote:

---

This is true, although many more item slots may be required for this: To substitute for not using lifedrain, you need both reinvigoration in excess of the unit's modified encumberance rating, and you need a whackload of regeneration.

Or no items slots at all, as you can gain both externally from spells, while using your slots for duelling gear.

In SC duelling, fights are typically short and brutal, so endurance in the form of perpetual reinvigoration is a nonissue. Of course, this just underscores the idea that tanks and tank-killers, are similar, yet have different requirements. A tank, being your typical SC, requires a weapon that is flexible and useful on the a variety of targets that it may encounter. A tank-killer, an anti-SC, only needs to be able to destroy tanks.

Indeed. Getting into the fight with no fatigue certainly helps (no penalties to att, deff & chance of armour piercing hit), but once you are hacking at each other it's mostly about att vs def, and damage yielded vs protection...and there are better weapons for that than the lifedraining ones, even at lower research levels.

---

You are forgeting that lifedrain *cause* the fatique on the target, in addition to all other effects. That can be very significant, since for example 2 or 3 cheap banelords with wraithswords and jade armor can get fatique level on your SC thought the roof in just few turns, and than kill it. Happens all the time in MP. (and yes, I know that there are counters to it I am just giving an example)

[ July 16, 2004, 10:42: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[Wendigo]

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
You are forgeting that lifedrain *cause* the fatique on the target, in addition to all other effects. That can be very significant, since for example 2 or 3 cheap banelords with wraithswords and jade armor can get fatique level on your SC thought the roof in just few turns, and than kill it. Happens all the time in MP. (and yes, I know that there are counters to it I am just giving an example) [/QB]

I am forgetting nothing.

A banelord with a wraithsword will deal 3 out of 4 times no fatigue damage to a 30 protection critter: 19+9=28+2d6 vs 30+2d6

Of course some hits might roll well and get through (assuming the banelord is not dead by then), but you are supposed to have planed for this & have your own reinvigoration countering it.

You can not claim 'multiple bane lords' as part of your argument, as those can easily be both grounded & delayed with a SoS, and bogged down with chaff.

edit: it's rather 7/10 than 3/4 if you want to nitpick, the core argument remains anyway.

[ July 16, 2004, 10:55: Message edited by: Wendigo ]