your favourite 2.12 vq nation

[nakomus]

First of all, let me say, I really don’t want to start a flame war about game balance here. Just expand on my own poll response, mainly. I’m not exactly an expert at MP. But my vote would be for the VQ to be left alone for now.

I’m one of the people who voted that they built there strategy around the VQ (with Abysia). By that I meant that the VQ was an integral part of the strategy, not that she was the whole point of the strategy. The Last time I played with a VQ and Abysia I used her for early expansion and extra defense in my dominion so I could focus on getting my blood economy going. I didn’t choose Abysia because they have extra points to dump into a VQ; I choose the VQ because I wanted to focus on Abysia’s magic and she let me do that.

I said that I based on strategy around the VQ because the strategy as a whole would not have worked well without her or something similar.

It seems to me that ones strategy should be based around your pretender god; they are afterall what the game is about.

With the VQ forbidden to Ermor now, Pan CW is probably in first place for disposable points to sink into a VQ. From reading these Boards, I get the impression that CW is a weak theme. Even with a tricked out VQ, is CW really overpowered?

forbidding her for most nations . only allow her for thematic natioins :
pan cw , ermor , bf ulm , abysia .

I don’t really agree that the VQ is thematic for Ermor and Pan CW. Although she is undead, she feeds on the blood of the living. A vampire in a killer dominion will starve (I know I’m not the first to point this out, but I forget who brought it up first).

If you do want to poll about balance, I think you should put it in the context of specific nations:

Is Pan CW with a VQ unbalanced?
Is Abysia with a VQ unbalanced?
Would Ermor with the patched VQ be unbalanced? (although its removal was I think partially thematic)

Even if the VQ is a little better than her competitors, I’d rather see the effort spent on improving the worst pretenders rather than dragging down the best.

[Vynd]

I was in favor of weakening the VQ before, but I think it is too soon to say if she needs to be weakened again. It does seem to me that she remains the most powerful combat Pretender you can get starting out the game. In the late game other Pretenders and summons can also be very strong with the right equipment, but the VQ comes with so many nice abilities built in that nothing really compares early on. But something has to be the best fighting Pretender early in the game. It might as well be her.

The problem before, at least as Illwinter seems to have seen it, was that the VQ was both an excellent fighter and Rainbow. The only reason you wouldn't take her is if you wanted a bless effect or wanted to dump most of your points into scales/dominion/forts.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Vynd:
It does seem to me that she remains the most powerful combat Pretender you can get starting out the game. In the late game other Pretenders and summons can also be very strong with the right equipment, but the VQ comes with so many nice abilities built in that nothing really compares early on. But something has to be the best fighting Pretender early in the game. It might as well be her.

While the VQ is certainly very adept at squashing indies, the King of All Fighters title really has always belonged to the Allfather, who is every bit as potent, and has many of the same attributes working for him, and has always been more rainbowy, with cheaper paths by far. His only real shortcoming is his nationally-restricted status.

On the other hand, with the VQ being nerfed largely to oblivion, the crown has more or less passed to the GK, being that the VQ is no longer affordable in the same role as before: The number of nations that you can squeeze a VQ out of is now far more restricted, and with the exception of those select nations, I, personally, have shifted to the GK for the rest.

[Pickles]

Quoting Boron:

"forbidding her for most nations . only allow her for thematic natioins :

pan cw , ermor ,"

These nations kill people & she eats people so I do not think they are thematic

doh! as others point out later in the thread

"bf ulm , abysia ."

ATM you have to allow her for all Ulm if you allow BF - not that she is a good choice for the others

As you say she is powerful for the nations that can afford to trash their scales plus that benefit from the blood/death she starts with She seems to be almost a theme on her own as you the build around her thing shows.

I am not sure she is ovepowered but she is the best choice by miles for this type of scale trashing good early, good middle, good late SC so she gets boring. I think maybe some other chasis could be boosted to close to her level (& cost) to create options for this role.

Pickles

edited typoes

[ August 02, 2004, 23:32: Message edited by: Pickles ]

[Boron]

Originally posted by Pickles:
Quoting Boron:

"forbidding her for most nations . only allow her for thematic natioins :

pan cw , ermor ,"

These nations kill people & she eats people so do not think they are thematic

"bf ulm , abysia ."

atm you have to allow her for all Ulm if you allow BF - not that she is a good choice for the others

As you say she is powerful for the nations that can afford to trash their scales plus that benefit from the blood/death she starts with She seems to be almost a theme on her own as you the build around her thing shows.

I am not sure she is ovepowered but she is the best choice by miles for this type of scale trashing good early good middle good late SC so she gets boring. I think maybe some otehr chasis could be booseted to close to her level (& cost) to leave options for this role.


Pickles

well i had in mind vq is undead so are ermor + pan cw
no blood is a good point though .
but once she is a real god she can create her own bloodslaves

i think raising something else to similiar strength as the vq is the wrong approach .

first some pretenders like the father of serpents should be nerfed up .
perhaps for these pretenders illwinter could disallow the rule : no troops , commander retreats if not immortal .
then the lions , snakes etc the various pretenders get would be a real small help.

only for the moloch the routing should be left otherwise he is a sc early game + cheapest fire bless chassis .

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Vynd:
I was in favor of weakening the VQ before, but I think it is too soon to say if she needs to be weakened again. It does seem to me that she remains the most powerful combat Pretender you can get starting out the game.

The Carrion Dragon (as well as Allfather) is probably a better, more powerful combat pretender right out of the blocks, especially when playing as CW, giving quick easy access to some very high regeneration for the CD.

Even late game, fully tricked out, the CD and Allfather are just as good. The difference is that the VQ dying is a only an inconvenience, as are any crippling wounds, even feeblemindedness. (Crippling wounds also aren't a big deal for the CD.)

[Boron]

Originally posted by Cainehill:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vynd:
I was in favor of weakening the VQ before, but I think it is too soon to say if she needs to be weakened again. It does seem to me that she remains the most powerful combat Pretender you can get starting out the game.

The Carrion Dragon (as well as Allfather) is probably a better, more powerful combat pretender right out of the blocks, especially when playing as CW, giving quick easy access to some very high regeneration for the CD.

Even late game, fully tricked out, the CD and Allfather are just as good. The difference is that the VQ dying is a only an inconvenience, as are any crippling wounds, even feeblemindedness. (Crippling wounds also aren't a big deal for the CD.)

---

yeah her immortality is a problem .
so you may chose what she should do :
still be quite dangerous unequipped / only low euquipped in many situations or extremely well euqipped .

she has built in so many things already .
flying , no need for boots of air , so she can take boots of quickness etc.

the carrion dragon may be more powerful from turn 1 but he has only 3 slots . and with alteration 3 the vq is sufficient enough to expand against all but 5% of the indies and win 99% sure .

the allfather is good too but restricted to vanheim only . if you spent lots of points in him it is a waste for vanheims good troops .

and he still may die unluckily .

with the vq you really can do everything she is the best allrounder .
mid-lategame you can either let her be a supporter by forging / summoning or turn her into at least a top 3 sc with euqipment .

because of their allround abilities she is still the best choice for the nations who can afford .
perhaps putting her to fire -100 resistence like the lich would solve that .