your favourite 2.12 vq nation

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Boron:
the carrion dragon may be more powerful from turn 1 but he has only 3 slots . and with alteration 3 the vq is sufficient enough to expand against all but 5% of the indies and win 99% sure .

Perhaps you haven't seen what a carrion dragon can do once Alteration 3 has been reached? Perhaps with enchantment 1 or 2 thrown in? Both the CD and the VQ can take most indies (probably less than 95% early though) and in general I'd say the CD has better odds in those fights. The VQ can get nailed by bad luck - a heavy blow getting through her ethereality can mess up her day, while the CD shrugs off those blows.

Perhaps more importantly - the CD doesn't _need_ to wait for Alt-3 or Ench-2. It's big and bad enough that it can solo provinces on turn 2 or 3, before the research gets done.

and he still may die unluckily .

This is the kicker for the VQ - any of the three can die attacking an unscouted province. Similarly, any of them can be killed in the late game. But the VQ shrugs it off nonchalantly, as long as it was friendly dominion.

*shrug* I still think immortality shouldn't give recuperation; that's one of the side effects that makes it too powerful, imo, even for the cost. Let the immortal heal all afflictions on immortal rebirth, and then they at least have to shuck off their equipment and get themselves killed when they have too many afflictions, instead of constantly healing them all along.

[Cainehill]

[quote]Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

No, they don't get an armor piercing 20 damage single-handed lifedrain attack, no matter what weapon you give them.

Two words: Astral Weapon.

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Cha! You know as well as anyone that no sane person puts Sorcery on a non-immortal pretender, unless perhaps they put an obscene (8-10) amount on.

Therefor, only immortal pretenders and a few others are going to commonly be able to use Astral Weapon, and let's see - the Phoenix can't use a weapon, the monolith, Baphomet, and Shedu have no hands (and no attack for the first two - lot of good Astral Weapon does them ). So generally speaking - only the liches, bog mummie, and VQ might realistically be seen with Astral Weapon.

Oh, wait! The Great Enchantress maybe, since she starts with Astral magic? I can just see her going into melee combat.

(Well, actually, I did just see one do that, and my Jonin wasted her after dealing with her troll bodyguards. So much for S4 and whatnot. )

[Stormbinder]

[quote]Originally posted by Cainehill:

quote:

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Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

No, they don't get an armor piercing 20 damage single-handed lifedrain attack, no matter what weapon you give them.

Two words: Astral Weapon.

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Cha! You know as well as anyone that no sane person puts Sorcery on a non-immortal pretender, unless perhaps they put an obscene (8-10) amount on.

Therefor, only immortal pretenders and a few others are going to commonly be able to use Astral Weapon, and let's see - the Phoenix can't use a weapon, the monolith, Baphomet, and Shedu have no hands (and no attack for the first two - lot of good Astral Weapon does them ). So generally speaking - only the liches, bog mummie, and VQ might realistically be seen with Astral Weapon.

Oh, wait! The Great Enchantress maybe, since she starts with Astral magic? I can just see her going into melee combat.

(Well, actually, I did just see one do that, and my Jonin wasted her after dealing with her troll bodyguards. So much for S4 and whatnot. )

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Wow. Cianehill disagreeing with Norfleet.

/Stormbinder rubs his eyes to make sure it is not an strange dream/

To Norf: 2 words - Mind Duel. Inless you get huge ammount of astral up to at least 8+, which would force you to waste huge ammount of points on most SC pretenders.

[ August 03, 2004, 02:51: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
To Norf: 2 words - Mind Duel. Inless you get huge ammount of astral up to at least 8+, which would force you to waste huge ammount of points on most SC pretenders.

There are ways of getting Astral Weapon onto your pretender without being able to actually cast it. If you are driving, say, a Void Lord, in any case, you're already stuck with the Astral anyway. And hey, the Void Lord has a nice Life Drain tentacle, one which he can't lose by wielding a weapon.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
There are ways of getting Astral Weapon onto your pretender without being able to actually cast it.

So you are going to put a slave matrix or blood slaves on your pretender, and have him go sessile as soon as your masters cast any spells? There's no other legal way to get astral weapon on a unit without having astral magic.

Originally posted by Zapmeister:

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Originally posted by Norfleet:
Immortality is worth less than subtle behavior tweak that it induces.

But that's all part of having immortality, which rocks both because of its direct effect, and the indirect ones. Add it to all the other VQ powers and you get a pretender that is still, in my view, a tad overpowered (and, by observation, still disproportionately popular).

I liked the idea of fire-100 vulnerability.

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But is the VQ's popularity due to objective assesments of its strengths, or because people find the idea of immortality an attractive safety blanket (even though its strategic value turns out to be pretty limited), or simply because Vampires Are Cool?

[Zapmeister]

Originally posted by Mark the Merciful:
But is the VQ's popularity due to objective assesments of its strengths, or because people find the idea of immortality an attractive safety blanket (even though its strategic value turns out to be pretty limited), or simply because Vampires Are Cool?

I don't know. But I do know that if you nerf something sufficiently, you will make it less popular. And if it was previously over-popular, then a greater variety of pretenders will see the light of day.