your favourite 2.12 vq nation

[Cainehill]

[quote]Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

No, they don't get an armor piercing 20 damage single-handed lifedrain attack, no matter what weapon you give them.

Two words: Astral Weapon.

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Cha! You know as well as anyone that no sane person puts Sorcery on a non-immortal pretender, unless perhaps they put an obscene (8-10) amount on.

Therefor, only immortal pretenders and a few others are going to commonly be able to use Astral Weapon, and let's see - the Phoenix can't use a weapon, the monolith, Baphomet, and Shedu have no hands (and no attack for the first two - lot of good Astral Weapon does them ). So generally speaking - only the liches, bog mummie, and VQ might realistically be seen with Astral Weapon.

Oh, wait! The Great Enchantress maybe, since she starts with Astral magic? I can just see her going into melee combat.

(Well, actually, I did just see one do that, and my Jonin wasted her after dealing with her troll bodyguards. So much for S4 and whatnot. )

[Stormbinder]

[quote]Originally posted by Cainehill:

quote:

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Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

No, they don't get an armor piercing 20 damage single-handed lifedrain attack, no matter what weapon you give them.

Two words: Astral Weapon.

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Cha! You know as well as anyone that no sane person puts Sorcery on a non-immortal pretender, unless perhaps they put an obscene (8-10) amount on.

Therefor, only immortal pretenders and a few others are going to commonly be able to use Astral Weapon, and let's see - the Phoenix can't use a weapon, the monolith, Baphomet, and Shedu have no hands (and no attack for the first two - lot of good Astral Weapon does them ). So generally speaking - only the liches, bog mummie, and VQ might realistically be seen with Astral Weapon.

Oh, wait! The Great Enchantress maybe, since she starts with Astral magic? I can just see her going into melee combat.

(Well, actually, I did just see one do that, and my Jonin wasted her after dealing with her troll bodyguards. So much for S4 and whatnot. )

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Wow. Cianehill disagreeing with Norfleet.

/Stormbinder rubs his eyes to make sure it is not an strange dream/

To Norf: 2 words - Mind Duel. Inless you get huge ammount of astral up to at least 8+, which would force you to waste huge ammount of points on most SC pretenders.

[ August 03, 2004, 02:51: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
To Norf: 2 words - Mind Duel. Inless you get huge ammount of astral up to at least 8+, which would force you to waste huge ammount of points on most SC pretenders.

There are ways of getting Astral Weapon onto your pretender without being able to actually cast it. If you are driving, say, a Void Lord, in any case, you're already stuck with the Astral anyway. And hey, the Void Lord has a nice Life Drain tentacle, one which he can't lose by wielding a weapon.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
There are ways of getting Astral Weapon onto your pretender without being able to actually cast it.

So you are going to put a slave matrix or blood slaves on your pretender, and have him go sessile as soon as your masters cast any spells? There's no other legal way to get astral weapon on a unit without having astral magic.

Originally posted by Zapmeister:

quote:

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Originally posted by Norfleet:
Immortality is worth less than subtle behavior tweak that it induces.

But that's all part of having immortality, which rocks both because of its direct effect, and the indirect ones. Add it to all the other VQ powers and you get a pretender that is still, in my view, a tad overpowered (and, by observation, still disproportionately popular).

I liked the idea of fire-100 vulnerability.

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But is the VQ's popularity due to objective assesments of its strengths, or because people find the idea of immortality an attractive safety blanket (even though its strategic value turns out to be pretty limited), or simply because Vampires Are Cool?

[Zapmeister]

Originally posted by Mark the Merciful:
But is the VQ's popularity due to objective assesments of its strengths, or because people find the idea of immortality an attractive safety blanket (even though its strategic value turns out to be pretty limited), or simply because Vampires Are Cool?

I don't know. But I do know that if you nerf something sufficiently, you will make it less popular. And if it was previously over-popular, then a greater variety of pretenders will see the light of day.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Mark the Merciful:
But is the VQ's popularity due to objective assesments of its strengths, or because people find the idea of immortality an attractive safety blanket (even though its strategic value turns out to be pretty limited), or simply because Vampires Are Cool?

It's some combination of all of the above. My attachment to it is primarily because its strengths happen to mesh well with my playing style. As a result of the nerfing round making it considerably less affordable, I've dumped it from many national strategies, or greatly de-emphasized it, even if I retain it purely for psychological value. There are, of course, others who cling to it anyway, even after I've said it wasn't affordable anymore, but these are people who I am pummelling. Of course, the "vampires are cool" crowd, well, they're hard to discourage. I know several who want to take them simply because "vampire chicks are sexy". These people take their VQs, and don't actually really use them to fight at all.

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
I don't know. But I do know that if you nerf something sufficiently, you will make it less popular. And if it was previously over-popular, then a greater variety of pretenders will see the light of day.

Part of the VQ's popularity may simply be flavor. I mean, you look at the alternatives, and, well, they're kinda meh, from a thematic viewpoint. Just look at some of the demigod options: Unless you're a big fan of the mythology they spring from, there's not much appeal to them: Some of them look kinda silly, and their mommas dress them funny.