your favourite 2.12 vq nation

[Zapmeister]

Originally posted by Mark the Merciful:
But is the VQ's popularity due to objective assesments of its strengths, or because people find the idea of immortality an attractive safety blanket (even though its strategic value turns out to be pretty limited), or simply because Vampires Are Cool?

I don't know. But I do know that if you nerf something sufficiently, you will make it less popular. And if it was previously over-popular, then a greater variety of pretenders will see the light of day.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Mark the Merciful:
But is the VQ's popularity due to objective assesments of its strengths, or because people find the idea of immortality an attractive safety blanket (even though its strategic value turns out to be pretty limited), or simply because Vampires Are Cool?

It's some combination of all of the above. My attachment to it is primarily because its strengths happen to mesh well with my playing style. As a result of the nerfing round making it considerably less affordable, I've dumped it from many national strategies, or greatly de-emphasized it, even if I retain it purely for psychological value. There are, of course, others who cling to it anyway, even after I've said it wasn't affordable anymore, but these are people who I am pummelling. Of course, the "vampires are cool" crowd, well, they're hard to discourage. I know several who want to take them simply because "vampire chicks are sexy". These people take their VQs, and don't actually really use them to fight at all.

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
I don't know. But I do know that if you nerf something sufficiently, you will make it less popular. And if it was previously over-popular, then a greater variety of pretenders will see the light of day.

Part of the VQ's popularity may simply be flavor. I mean, you look at the alternatives, and, well, they're kinda meh, from a thematic viewpoint. Just look at some of the demigod options: Unless you're a big fan of the mythology they spring from, there's not much appeal to them: Some of them look kinda silly, and their mommas dress them funny.

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
I don't know. But I do know that if you nerf something sufficiently, you will make it less popular. And if it was previously over-popular, then a greater variety of pretenders will see the light of day.

I don't at all like this line of reasoning, but it does lead to the point I was aiming at when asking my previous question.

If the VQ is popular becuase it's overpowered - and therefore the obvious choice for munchkins everywhere - then nerfing is a valid option. But if it's popular simply because people like it... Well they paid money for the game, and they're entitled to play it how they want. I don't think nerfing the VQ into oblivion just to make people choose other Pretenders is a reasonable objective to aim for.

[archaeolept]

it was the munchkin uberpretender par excellence. it perhaps still is, but at least you have to pay for it now. the vast popularity it held amongst pubbies was in large part simply a reflection of it's reputation as a munchkin uberpretender - a lot of newbies would take it in some MP game because they had heard how strong she was. However, they usually didn't know how to use her.

Norfleet is being a bit disingenuous. i think all those games i've seen him playing since 2.12 where a VQ is an option, he has taken the VQ. before the patch he also tried the line that the GK was "in many ways the superior pretender", but I also never saw him take the GK when the VQ was an option.



at least now i don't feel dirty picking her as a pretender. immortality may still be too powerful, but at least she is no longer ridiculously underpriced.

[Boron]

Originally posted by archaeolept:
it was the munchkin uberpretender par excellence. it perhaps still is, but at least you have to pay for it now. the vast popularity it held amongst pubbies was in large part simply a reflection of it's reputation as a munchkin uberpretender - a lot of newbies would take it in some MP game because they had heard how strong she was. However, they usually didn't know how to use her.

Norfleet is being a bit disingenuous. i think all those games i've seen him playing since 2.12 where a VQ is an option, he has taken the VQ. before the patch he also tried the line that the GK was "in many ways the superior pretender", but I also never saw him take the GK when the VQ was an option.



at least now i don't feel dirty picking her as a pretender. immortality may still be too powerful, but at least she is no longer ridiculously underpriced.

the problem now is that it gives some races an edge . e.g. caelum + abysia can still afford a vq . both are already strong without vq though .


i still think susceptile to fire 100 for the vq is a good solution .
it is thematic anyway because vampires get killed by the sun + they don't like fire too .
this will make the vq still good but not slightly overpowered as she still is .
all the other undead immortal pretenders like the lichs have that -100 fire resistence .

this way the vq still can be used as a super early game expander and for combat but has to chose to either do something against the -100 fire resistence or live with it .

she already has 2 resistences + most wished built in abilities . this way she can take 1-2 useful items more than anyone else .
flying -----> boots of quickness -----> no jade armor needed etc.

another advantage of the vq is she has D1B2 . so she can easily chainsummon vampires .
a vq abysia with chainsummoned vampires / vampire lords pushing dominion by blood sacrifice is scary

[Sheap]

I do not think the VQ is overpowered any more. Previously she was a little strong. But as it is only a few races can really afford her. Sure (almost) anyone can take her but she will lose much of her effectiveness. And even for those races which can afford her, it's not simply that she is just as good as before for them. They can simply better afford the sacrifices that must be made.

Compared to the liches she now has worse dominion, and always had worse physical stats, but gains etherealness, regeneration and flight and is less flammable. But she costs 40 points more and has worse path cost. Built in the typical VQ-as-SC-way, that's going to add up to about 70 points extra cost over a comparable-magic lich, with worse dominion. This really seems like a fair deal to me.

Someone is going to be the best SC pretender. As long as the price is fair, that's OK.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by archaeolept:
Norfleet is being a bit disingenuous. i think all those games i've seen him playing since 2.12 where a VQ is an option, he has taken the VQ. before the patch he also tried the line that the GK was "in many ways the superior pretender", but I also never saw him take the GK when the VQ was an option.

That's because I've been in all of two games that have started since then, both of them as Caelum, one of the nations that still CAN afford it. Maybe if you actually played in more games that I was in, or hell, there *WERE* more games to play, you'd see more GK.