your favourite 2.12 vq nation

[archaeolept]

it was the munchkin uberpretender par excellence. it perhaps still is, but at least you have to pay for it now. the vast popularity it held amongst pubbies was in large part simply a reflection of it's reputation as a munchkin uberpretender - a lot of newbies would take it in some MP game because they had heard how strong she was. However, they usually didn't know how to use her.

Norfleet is being a bit disingenuous. i think all those games i've seen him playing since 2.12 where a VQ is an option, he has taken the VQ. before the patch he also tried the line that the GK was "in many ways the superior pretender", but I also never saw him take the GK when the VQ was an option.



at least now i don't feel dirty picking her as a pretender. immortality may still be too powerful, but at least she is no longer ridiculously underpriced.

[Boron]

Originally posted by archaeolept:
it was the munchkin uberpretender par excellence. it perhaps still is, but at least you have to pay for it now. the vast popularity it held amongst pubbies was in large part simply a reflection of it's reputation as a munchkin uberpretender - a lot of newbies would take it in some MP game because they had heard how strong she was. However, they usually didn't know how to use her.

Norfleet is being a bit disingenuous. i think all those games i've seen him playing since 2.12 where a VQ is an option, he has taken the VQ. before the patch he also tried the line that the GK was "in many ways the superior pretender", but I also never saw him take the GK when the VQ was an option.



at least now i don't feel dirty picking her as a pretender. immortality may still be too powerful, but at least she is no longer ridiculously underpriced.

the problem now is that it gives some races an edge . e.g. caelum + abysia can still afford a vq . both are already strong without vq though .


i still think susceptile to fire 100 for the vq is a good solution .
it is thematic anyway because vampires get killed by the sun + they don't like fire too .
this will make the vq still good but not slightly overpowered as she still is .
all the other undead immortal pretenders like the lichs have that -100 fire resistence .

this way the vq still can be used as a super early game expander and for combat but has to chose to either do something against the -100 fire resistence or live with it .

she already has 2 resistences + most wished built in abilities . this way she can take 1-2 useful items more than anyone else .
flying -----> boots of quickness -----> no jade armor needed etc.

another advantage of the vq is she has D1B2 . so she can easily chainsummon vampires .
a vq abysia with chainsummoned vampires / vampire lords pushing dominion by blood sacrifice is scary

[Sheap]

I do not think the VQ is overpowered any more. Previously she was a little strong. But as it is only a few races can really afford her. Sure (almost) anyone can take her but she will lose much of her effectiveness. And even for those races which can afford her, it's not simply that she is just as good as before for them. They can simply better afford the sacrifices that must be made.

Compared to the liches she now has worse dominion, and always had worse physical stats, but gains etherealness, regeneration and flight and is less flammable. But she costs 40 points more and has worse path cost. Built in the typical VQ-as-SC-way, that's going to add up to about 70 points extra cost over a comparable-magic lich, with worse dominion. This really seems like a fair deal to me.

Someone is going to be the best SC pretender. As long as the price is fair, that's OK.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by archaeolept:
Norfleet is being a bit disingenuous. i think all those games i've seen him playing since 2.12 where a VQ is an option, he has taken the VQ. before the patch he also tried the line that the GK was "in many ways the superior pretender", but I also never saw him take the GK when the VQ was an option.

That's because I've been in all of two games that have started since then, both of them as Caelum, one of the nations that still CAN afford it. Maybe if you actually played in more games that I was in, or hell, there *WERE* more games to play, you'd see more GK.

[Zapmeister]

Originally posted by Mark the Merciful:
I don't think nerfing the VQ into oblivion just to make people choose other Pretenders is a reasonable objective to aim for.

I agree, but I don't think I ever proposed nerfing the VQ "into oblivion". I hold to the view that she's still a little over-powered post-2.12, but that's a debate I'm trying to steer clear of now.

[SelfishGene]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Stormbinder:
To Norf: 2 words - Mind Duel. Inless you get huge ammount of astral up to at least 8+, which would force you to waste huge ammount of points on most SC pretenders.

There are ways of getting Astral Weapon onto your pretender without being able to actually cast it. If you are driving, say, a Void Lord, in any case, you're already stuck with the Astral anyway. And hey, the Void Lord has a nice Life Drain tentacle, one which he can't lose by wielding a weapon.

---

You could take a Son of the Sun. I mean you *could*....

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
I agree, but I don't think I ever proposed nerfing the VQ "into oblivion". I hold to the view that she's still a little over-powered post-2.12, but that's a debate I'm trying to steer clear of now.

Yeh - the VQ may be a little over-powered still, but mainly only for a couple of nations / themes. More importantly, it isn't so much overpowered that there aren't possibilities that are at least on a par with it. For example - Caelum : Virtue, PoD, and Moloch all seem to be roughly on par with a VQ. Sure, maybe a little lighter in the loafers, but real close - enough that you can see building a game and pretender against any, and not just the VQ.