So how 'bout those Mets?

[Stormbinder]

Consider this Gandelf: If you personally would be on the receiving end of this crap in the first place, and had the game which you have created and invested so much of your personal time and energy ruined in such a way it was, maybe you would feel slightly different about it, don't you think? You know, it's always quite easy to judge about "ends" and "means" from the side. In fact, to be honest with you, my own position would be more similar to yours as well, if I would be in your shoes. But to be totally fair, you have to take into consideration the fact that it is hard to expect from the party which was on the receiving end of such things (twice by now), to remain 100% cool and calm and take everything with a good sense of humor. >;(

/Edited out a Personal Email from Kristoffer O./ - Zen


To Zen: I didn't suggested to you that you ban Norfleet before the Illwinter would take a chance to look and decide what's going on here. But I do feel that it may not be the best solution in this situation to just lock the thread with no explanation, as it was another silly flamewar and nothing more, instead of at least saying something on this matter before you lock it, even like posting your personal opinion. After all you are the most experienced player around, not just a forum moderator. You have read yourself blatant lies that Norfleet said about this game, answering my questions. You have read the numbers that KristoferO and me posted on the board. Do you honestly think that there is any way short of cheating to have 5000 gems in such game by turn 23 ?!?

But that's ok, I didn't expected anything else from him, so it doesn't bother me at all. But when instead of saying "thanks", you , the forum moderator and very dedicated Dom2 MP player on your own, keep calling me "another side of Norfleet's coin", as if it was me who had cheated, I do feel a bit hurt by it, frankly.

I don't think that somebody who exposed cheater, should be equaled with the cheater, just because that somebody was *really* hurt and irritated by this very subject of cheating, which happened to him in his own game, but he didn't have hard proof of it at that time. But if you really think that there is no real difference here between the cheater and the one who was cheated, and who spend a lot of time gathering and preparing all these evidence to expose cheater, to the benefit of the entire players MP community, I am not going to argue with you. I am leaving it up to you to decide.

Stormbinder

It might be said that in certain circles, Norfleet was known to have behavior that would be considered cheating but could not be proven directly as such, but it was well known that he is/was at some time.

[Cainehill]

As for Illwinter's position - here are some excepts from KristofferO letter to me, that he send after you locked that thread:

And once again Stormbinder displayed _his_ glaring lack of ethics / common courtesy, quoting a private email publicly, just as he used wiretaps to quote from conversations (ie, logged irc chats and publicly posted them, akin to illegally tapping a telephone line).

I'm not saying that Norfleet is necessarily innocent of cheating. I'm just saying that I find Stormbinder's actions, attitudes, and diatribes disgusting and reprehensible - and he wants to be thanked for this?

To the point of sending harassing private Messages, asking if I have the "guts" to say I'm sorry to Stormvomit, after having been told I didn't want private Messages from him.

Stormbinder, to once again quote your acronom : I'm sorry you didn't FOAD.

Now that I've had a chance to reread this, (I was half asleep from waking up earlier, so I have adjusted my response to accurately reflect what is written instead of my half-asleep understanding)

To Zen: I didn't suggested to you that you ban Norfleet before the Illwinter would take a chance to look and decide what's going on here. But I do feel that it may not be the best solution in this situation to just lock the thread with no explanation, as it was another silly flamewar and nothing more, instead of at least saying something on this matter before you lock it, even like posting your personal opinion.

I closed it because it was going to *become* a silly flamewar. Because it was taking on the tendancies of it. And maybe I should let flames ride if it's cheating? Maybe, but I don't want to be quick to jump the gun on accusing or saying irrefutably such things happened or not, though in this case it may be obvious to all but a few. Here is from an earlier post about my personal opinion:

I don't think my personal opinion should be tacked on the end of every closed post. Since my personal opinion could be very much the opposite of the reason why the thread was closed down.

If you want my personal opinion on the subject. It is: Cheaters suck. I don't like them. But they happen, in every game you play. At least to some degree you can control such things, but as it is now I haven't found an excessive amount of cheating in Dom2 as opposed to say ... Blizzard games (For obvious reasons). I think it's personally very low to cheat, and to cheat in a forum that you seem to want and have a helpful presence within. I also think it's abhorable to use cheating against newbies, constantly, anhillating them constantly and without mercy by cheating when it's perfectly servicable and easy enough to do without cheating.

Sort of like murder is bad, but murdering a 2 year old kid is an uncommon sort of low bastard.

Now, with that said, I'm not going to foam around about it, just a sad fact of life.

After all you are the most experienced player around, not just a forum moderator. You have read yourself blatant lies that Norfleet said about this game, answering my questions. You have read the numbers that KristoferO and me posted on the board. Do you honestly think that there is any way short of cheating to have 5000 gems in such game by turn 23 ?!?

No I don't personally think so. But as I said previously that it may not be him alone, and I don't see how it can be done. That the game was tampered with is not an issue, that it was tampered with in favor of Norfleet or "for Norfleet" is not an issue. How he did it, and why to that extent are a few questions I have personally but yes, as far as I'm concerned Ermor cheated in that game and that game and Ermor was Norfleet. Conspiracy theories aside, I have no reason to think that Norfleet was not capable, had motivation and had previous record of doing such in the past.

But that's ok, I didn't expected anything else from him, so it doesn't bother me at all. But when instead of saying "thanks", you , the forum moderator and very dedicated Dom2 MP player on your own, keep calling me "another side of Norfleet's coin", as if it was me who had cheated, I do feel a bit hurt by it, frankly.

No, the other side of the coin as far as conversation and discussion about such things. We both know you have a tendancy to get yourself worked up on certain issues, this happens to be two of the main issues that you get worked up, combined! I never said you cheated, that you were even in the same Category as a cheater or that I do appreciate the fact that you have found enough proof to damn him for his actions and exposed him for cheating and thus tainting those who play the games he was in.

I don't think that somebody who exposed cheater, should be equaled with the cheater, just because that somebody was *really* hurt and irritated by this very subject of cheating, which happened to him in his own game, but he didn't have hard proof of it at that time. But if you really think that there is no real difference here between the cheater and the one who was cheated, and who spend a lot of time gathering and preparing all these evidence to expose cheater, to the benefit of the entire players MP community, I am not going to argue with you. I am leaving it up to you to decide.

I never said they were the same. I only said that you haven't seem to have given it enough time to really look into it, especially considering the forum switchover, differences in timezones, and a multitude of factors. I would hope you wouldn't think my objectivity and not instant judgement of ANYONE (including yourself, Norfleet, or any other number of people) is better than rash accustations.

Considering this is coming from someone who 'Banned' Norfleet months ago, I would have to venture a guess that your mind was made up long before any 'proof' or 'hard work' was given. The problem with the bandwagon is it's always ready for more members, on their way to other places.

As I have said before, and maybe it's not being clear. IF: This is Cheating (which it appears to be at least to some) THEN: Some sort of 'official' action as far as forums go will be taken. IF: Illwinter and Co. feel the need or inclination to judge and lay down a punishment THEN: It will be administered and more than likely provided to the community though the reasoning or depth of the first IF may or may not be revealed.

If you want to take a guess at what stage this is in, look at the beginning.

I would also like to say, that cheating has been going on previous to this one incidient, by more than one person before in the past and more than likely will in the future. There is a reason that "Cheat Prevention" was implemented. Not some, by the fly "This would be a cool feature" type of decision. But one based on need.

So take it for what it's worth, but if Norfleet was cheating then he was most certainly not the first, and most certainly wasn't the Last, and most certainly was known about to a degree.

[Zapmeister]

Considering this is coming from someone who 'Banned' Norfleet months ago, I would have to venture a guess that your mind was made up long before any 'proof' or 'hard work' was given.

I deny that. I am not a witch-hunter, but I am prepared to accept what I regard as damning evidence when it's presented. Even if I don't like the person that's presenting it (which I do) or do like the person it's damning (which I admit I don't).

Well certainly you feel the need to give accolades to something that is only circumstancial evidence. KO gave a breakdown, which is very damning in and of itself but could hardly be construed as 'irrefutable proof' especially considering that it hasn't been found out how to do it.

Until a way is found out how this is accomplished and can be understood I am more concerned with it's impact and not that it was done. Once it can be found out how to do it, either Gem Stockpile or Magic Item placement and then it could be said that /these are the weaknesses in the cheat prevention code/ and /with these weaknesses X is possible/ then I will say irrefutably that X = Cheating. And go from there.

If it's found that there is no sane way in which something like this could happen, or happen with only one parties participation I am not prepared to place full blame and furious witch hunting on any one individual.

[Stormbinder]

Yeh. Someone definately doesn't believe in "innocent until proven guilty", or "beyond a reasonable doubt". After all - hypothetically, it'd be more likely that the host or the person with the master password was doing any digital manipulation of game files.

Sure. As a matter of fact, both me and Mose have conspired to frame poor and innocent Norfleet. But good old Cainehill is too smart for us, we could not fool him. <sob>

[Esben Mose Hansen]

Yeh. Someone definately doesn't believe in "innocent until proven guilty", or "beyond a reasonable doubt". After all - hypothetically, it'd be more likely that the host or the person with the master password was doing any digital manipulation of game files.

If Norfleet was being framed, why would he agree on the numbers of the battle? I liked Norfleet as much as anyone, but I find the framing scenario very unlikely. I have to say that Norfleet's guilt is proven beyond any reasonable doubt. In that light, we must assume that Norfleet has probably cheated in more games, which brings the different flamewars into a different light.