So how 'bout those Mets?

[Cainehill]

If Norfleet was being framed, why would he agree on the numbers of the battle? I liked Norfleet as much as anyone, but I find the framing scenario very unlikely. I have to say that Norfleet's guilt is proven beyond any reasonable doubt. In that light, we must assume that Norfleet has probably cheated in more games, which brings the different flamewars into a different light.

Or that some of the people with an agenda against him went "beyond the pale". I certainly don't think you (as the host) had anything to do with it.

But something irks me, from a logical point of view. Supposedly Norfleet had _17_ dwarven hammers on turn 22 or 23. To me, that's nuts - maybe at turn 40, or 60, someone might have use for 17 hammers.

But at turn 23, it's conspicuously wasteful - you can't _use_ that many hammers, even if the cost of creating them was negligible. That's something fishy, to me.

It seems just as likely to me, that someone figured out how to cheat and used that to frame Norfleet in so hugely blatant and obvious a way that he could start calling out, in what was for him an oddly reasonable tone of voice, "Say, partner, can you explain what I think I see here?"

Knowing the forged evidence is so damning that the jury will already have decided to hang, no matter the explanation : "I don't know how those stolen cattle got into my pen. The 17 dwarven sheep in the bedroom? No sense even talking about them."

As I say - given the animosities involved, this seems as credible as someone going so far off the deep end as to actually forge 17 dwarven hammers while cheating. (If you're capable of cheating so massively on gems - _WHY_ do you need all the hammers?)

Another fishy thing, from another game : How does an artifact (the Holy Grail) simply disappear from the magic item stash, with a message saying "Suddenly the Chalice was not found in the laboratory anymore".

[archaeolept]

I don't think that possibility is very convincing caine, whatever the characters involved. Norfleet did not say, hey this isn't the game I was playing (as if he had been set up), but instead tried to put forth various bull**** explanations (such as about having used sorceresses for ravensfeast and getting 40 death gems from burninating provinces). And, frankly, I find Norfleet much more likely to have had the necessary skills for the job.

As to the chalice thing, that's just the message you get if someone wishes the artifact away from you. You can wish it back if you want

[johan osterman]

Or that some of the people with an agenda against him went "beyond the pale". I certainly don't think you (as the host) had anything to do with it.

But something irks me, from a logical point of view. Supposedly Norfleet had _17_ dwarven hammers on turn 22 or 23. To me, that's nuts - maybe at turn 40, or 60, someone might have use for 17 hammers.

But at turn 23, it's conspicuously wasteful - you can't _use_ that many hammers, even if the cost of creating them was negligible. That's something fishy, to me.

It seems just as likely to me, that someone figured out how to cheat and used that to frame Norfleet in so hugely blatant and obvious a way that he could start calling out, in what was for him an oddly reasonable tone of voice, "Say, partner, can you explain what I think I see here?"

Knowing the forged evidence is so damning that the jury will already have decided to hang, no matter the explanation : "I don't know how those stolen cattle got into my pen. The 17 dwarven sheep in the bedroom? No sense even talking about them."

As I say - given the animosities involved, this seems as credible as someone going so far off the deep end as to actually forge 17 dwarven hammers while cheating. (If you're capable of cheating so massively on gems - _WHY_ do you need all the hammers?)

Another fishy thing, from another game : How does an artifact (the Holy Grail) simply disappear from the magic item stash, with a message saying "Suddenly the Chalice was not found in the laboratory anymore".

No need to go all conspiracy minded. The simpler explanation is that Norfleet either hacked the files or used some sort of glitch he discovered, which would be tantamount to cheating. Add to the submitted files that Norfleet has, on more than one occasion I believe, triggered the cheat protections in the game, and also to my knowledge he is one of the very few if not the only forum acitve player that has done this in MP. While it is not irrefutably certain that he did cheat I think it is by far the most likely and obvious explanation.

The chalice dissappeared because the knights of the chalice came and quested for it.

[johan osterman]

I also want to point out that if the part of Kristoffers mail that Cainhill quoted is all that Stormbinder posted, the mail has recieved some editing before being quoted. I was reading over Kristoffers shoulder when he wrote it and the original tone of the letter was not intended to be congratulatory but to say 'you were right, it is there for everyone to see, be satisfied with that and move on' in response to Stormbinder feeling that Norfleet got the Last word when the thread was locked, I think the parts of the mail posted skewes the tone of it somewhat.

[Vicious Love]

Not to start yet another flamelest, but I'm constantly astonished by just how ingrateful we can seem at times. Honestly, the Dom 2 team, which is just barely large enough to be called that, has done more for the fanbase than any major game corporation. Clearly, this game is a Derek Smartesque labor of love.
Honestly, before we start making demands and accusations, I suggest we contemplate how anyone could put so much effort into a game, and still take the time to pander to the fans at every other turn.

[Cainehill]

Johan:

No need to go all conspiracy minded. The simpler explanation is that Norfleet either hacked the files or used some sort of glitch he discovered, which would be tantamount to cheating. Add to the submitted files that Norfleet has, on more than one occasion I believe, triggered the cheat protections in the game, and also to my knowledge he is one of the very few if not the only forum acitve player that has done this in MP. While it is not irrefutably certain that he did cheat I think it is by far the most likely and obvious explanation.

Oh, I agree 100% that it is more _likely_ that Norfleet was cheating - Occam's Razor and all that. I simply (?) wanted to raise an alternative theory that, while not as simple, could also explain things. I'm certainly also willing to admit that I'm willing to give Norfleet more of a benefit of the doubt that Stormbinder, but that's a matter of history and personal animosity.

Both Stormbinder and I would be disqualified from an jury for this matter that didn't believe in "hang first, ask questions later".

The chalice dissappeared because the knights of the chalice came and quested for it.

So the knights might be carrying the chalice now? Interesting. Thanks.

[Esben Mose Hansen]

But something irks me, from a logical point of view. Supposedly Norfleet had _17_ dwarven hammers on turn 22 or 23. To me, that's nuts - maybe at turn 40, or 60, someone might have use for 17 hammers.

Did you look at the game? With the number of magic-Users 17 hammers are not unreasonable, especially if you're making many clams.

It seems just as likely to me, that someone figured out how to cheat and used that to frame Norfleet in so hugely blatant and obvious a way that he could start calling out, in what was for him an oddly reasonable tone of voice, "Say, partner, can you explain what I think I see here?"

Knowing the forged evidence is so damning that the jury will already have decided to hang, no matter the explanation : "I don't know how those stolen cattle got into my pen. The 17 dwarven sheep in the bedroom? No sense even talking about them."

As I say - given the animosities involved, this seems as credible as someone going so far off the deep end as to actually forge 17 dwarven hammers while cheating. (If you're capable of cheating so massively on gems - _WHY_ do you need all the hammers?)

You seem to desperately want Norfleet to be framed, which is, eh, unlikely, given the things he said. Why would he claim that he used many fetishes, when he had one? Why would he claim he used Sorceresses, when he had none? And so on, and so forth. Besides, what jury are you talking about? Not many people have been outspoken against Norfleet personally.

[Demosthenes]

Hold on. Was you in my "Song of Ice and Fire" game on GG that Norfleet have ruined, Demosthenes? If so, what was your nick there, on GG Boards?

Or did you just read our game thread and compared that alter ego with Norfleet, whom you know from shrapnels Boards?

I was not in that game. I was in Dom2 lurk mode for a while having been on vacation and pulled out of a few MP games at GG. I read all the pertaining threads at the time though. My point was that his method of defending himself was nearly identical in both instances. Vague responses and proud refusals to explain himself.

Hmm. Now let's not go too far here. It seems to me that it may be a bit *too* much diplomatic approach Gandalf. It almost sounds like you are sorry to see Norfleet gone, after he was undenyably exposed as cheater.

Hell I'm sad to see him gone too. The guy's crazy and quite possibly dangerous to others but he sure contributed a lot around here. I'd like him to visit and continue to discuss the game. He would have to of course be big enough to live with the reputation he has garnered and understand if he is not welcome in MP games, but that's life.

We haven't even heard his "honest" explanation. He said it was not something he could control. Those are serious words from Norfleet.

I think this may have to go in the "Wait and See" file for now.

I'm pretty amazed that you seem to think you have concrete and irrefutable proof in which to do a 'instant-right-now-banning'. Or you seem to want lightspeed 'justice' as far as how things are done. I'm sorry if deliberation as far as 'Should someone be IP Banned' from a forum that he is supposedly leaving in any regard is taking too long for you or feel you need a play by minute review of (if any) action that is taken or opinions expressed.

As far as I know, KO and JK have had a hard time accessing the Beta Forums since the upgrade and the Moderator Forum so the conversation could not even be held until that is fixed and they can view/access such Posts and 'evidence' presented.

I don't like your tone or implication one bit, with how much I've had to work with you Stormbinder, I'd think you'd give people a little more slack who have given you an incredible amount in the past and present.

If you want swift and heavy handed justice without proper consideration, I can certainly provide that in equal amounts on both sides of the coin in the future.

[Stormbinder]

[quote]


I was not in that game. I was in Dom2 lurk mode for a while having been on vacation and pulled out of a few MP games at GG. I read all the pertaining threads at the time though. My point was that his method of defending himself was nearly identical in both instances. Vague responses and proud refusals to explain himself.
[quote]


Gotcha. I though that maybe you are like our AhhhhFresh player in that game, who loves to have different nicks on different Boards. And yes, you are absolutely correct about similarities.

As for "something that he could not control" - I think he was refering to the voices in his head, telling him what he must do. AFAIK, half of the crazy guys have them...