Ceremonial Faith

[Arryn]

Kristoffer O said:
Is god calling a prayer?

Yes. "I humbly beseech thy swift return, O mighty Lord! Thy people are in direst need of thee." It would be utter blasphemy to believe that one could summon a deity, as one might summon some common beast.

Kristoffer O said:
Why is the prayer more religious than preaching? This is a matter of definition of the term religion.

Definition is irrelevent. Preaching is the swaying of others to one's faith, and/or the instruction of those faithful and heathen into the glories of one's faith. Prayer, OTOH, is (ostensibly) the direct communion with one's deity. Now you tell me which is more holy? Preaching is hawking goods (faith), which is basically salesmanship. It is also education (or more accurately, dogmatic indoctrination, but that leads into a separate discussion which doesn't belong on this forum) of the masses. Prayer is an actual expression and practice of one's faith (as is sacrifice and various sundry other actions).

Having said the above, the calling of one's god, in game terms, is a ritualized ceremony done by one or more priests with the explicit and sole purpose of summoning said deity. It is inconsistent for the game to exclude this particular ritual from receiving the thematic bonus simply because it is focused at one's god and not the god's followers or enemies. It's also illogical from the standpoint that if the god is empowering his/her/its followers with enhanced priestly ability so as to better spread the faith, you'd think said god might want his/her/its followers to be able to bring him/her/it back from the dead ASAP so that said faith won't falter.

Kristoffer O said:
Personal religion, in wich prayer is indeed more important than preaching, is somewhat of a modern development.

You are SO wrong about this. You have it backwards. Preaching is a "modern" development. Modern in the sense of having arisen with civilization and writing. Pagan religions dating back to prehistoric times, including one of the oldest, Wicca (which remains somewhat popular even today), are much more focused on prayer and ritual and far less on evangelization and dogmatic instruction. Preaching is a tool that was developed to control commonfolk and bend them to the will of their rulers, who in ancient and medieval times were religious figures (or in certain countries even today).

[Cainehill]

Arryn said:
It's also illogical from the standpoint that if the god is empowering his/her/its followers with enhanced priestly ability so as to better spread the faith, you'd think said god might want his/her/its followers to be able to bring him/her/it back from the dead ASAP so that said faith won't falter.

Then again, as Neitzsche said, "God is Dead", and dead gods arguably shouldn't be able to impart any enhanced priestly power upon their followers while dead, because, well, dead gods aren't very much fun. I'm sure the deity _wants_ to be called back from the dead, but well, she's dead.

[Arryn]

Caine,

By that logic, the priests shouldn't be able to bring her back at all, for their power, derived from the god itself, would vanish upon the deity's demise. OTOH, if mortals (priests in this case) create their deity through their own power, then they can certainly invest themselves with extra power too. It either works one way, or the other. If the system is logically self-consistent.

Of course, I'm a firm believer in that there's no such thing as logical self-consistency with regards to the subject of religion, but that's a taboo subject here (and my thoughts on religion and politics are by now fairly well known to folks here).

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Arryn said:
It would be utter blasphemy to believe that one could summon a deity, as one might summon some common beast.

Hah, but you forget you're not really playing a deity in Dominions - only a creature powerful enough to pretend to be one, and to inspire faith great enough onto its followers to achieve miracles .

Having said the above, the calling of one's god, in game terms, is a ritualized ceremony done by one or more priests with the explicit and sole purpose of summoning said deity.

And you could as well add, "the smiting of one's god's enemies (Banishment, Smite, Holy Avenger), is one or more priests calling the god's power thru prayer with the explicit and sole purpose of defeating said deity's enemies". Same with Sermon of Courage and Fanaticism - after all, these two and preaching have the same objective: strenghtening the god's followers' faith to inspire courage (soldiers) or piety (commoners), which both help the god's cause (to be the sole reigning deity).

It is inconsistent for the game to exclude this particular ritual from receiving the thematic bonus simply because it is focused at one's god and not the god's followers or enemies.

I don't think it is inconsistent.

I see it like this: Ceremonial Faith is a clergy thing, and I have no problem with a better organized clergy preaching the masses more efficiently without that ability being linked to the god's very essence. Ceremonial Faith is defined as a 'Special Dominions' section for convenience and this may be misleading, maybe if there was a separate Category for it in the nation design menu (eg, 'Nation Properties', ie things not depending on to the god), you would not have a problem with it. To me the preaching bonus of CF is more akin to the research bonus Sages get, except Sages are available to everyone, while your clergy is only available to you.

[Arryn]

So what you're saying is that the ceremonial ritual for god-calling is (fundamentally) no different than that of a spell ritual (which also isn't granted a bonus in CF)?

Then I submit that the description should not refer to the bonus as applying to a "religious ceremony", since ceremonies are traditionally prayers (which in this game's terms means spells, not preaching). I suppose that the devs intended to mean that in CF preaching is ceremonialized (and thus very ritualized), but that blurs the line between what is preaching and what is a magic invocation (ritual) and the language one uses to describe such should be chosen more carefully to make this very clear. (Or, at least, explicitly state that god-calling isn't included in CF's effect.)

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Arryn said:
So what you're saying is that the ceremonial ritual for god-calling is (fundamentally) no different than that of a spell ritual (which also isn't granted a bonus in CF)?

Well, technically it sure is different - using religious faith instead of magical energies, using a different command - call god instead of cast ritual spell. Although it's true I consider god-calling as a form of summoning that's available to priests of one's religion. I guess a commoner in Dominions - especially an atheist - wouldn't notice a great difference if an Arch Theurg calls the local pretender back, or summons an Elemental Queen of Air instead.

Anyway I'm not saying "it works like this", rather "this is how I understand it". I gave my own interpretation of CF just like you gave yours, I don't pretend it's the Ultimate Truth. If CF indeed had an effect on god-calling (which I wouldn't mind BTW), I'd envision things entirely differently - with priests leading public ceremonies with thousands of attendants and relying mainly on the commoners' piety to call the deity back, rather than relying on their own religious knowledge (using specific prayers) in magic ritual-like ceremonies.

Then I submit that the description should not refer to the bonus as applying to a "religious ceremony", since ceremonies are traditionally prayers (which in this game's terms means spells, not preaching).

The blurb texts never use technical terms. And while it may be misleading sometimes, I like it this way - I think it gives a cool touch to the game.

I suppose that the devs intended to mean that in CF preaching is ceremonialized (and thus very ritualized), but that blurs the line between what is preaching and what is a magic invocation (ritual) and the language one uses to describe such should be chosen more carefully to make this very clear. (Or, at least, explicitly state that god-calling isn't included in CF's effect.)

It could be worse. What if the had called CF Ritual Faith instead?

[En Forcer]

This is a fascinating conversation. However, I'd like to propose an idea in regards to the Pretenders and what they actually are in a way that fits in with the milleau.

The pretenders are demi-gods. Corporeal, not quite ready (or aware of) becoming the non-corporeal Primary deity. That being said, when their body is slain, all pretenders are in a sense immortal. Waiting just on the other side of the "veil" to be called back and reconstituted. One could almost call their physical body an Avatar. But they still are a single consciousness and "used to" inhabiting a physical body hence the desire to actually be present in a capitol province, lead troops, etc.

I would propose higher levels of Pretender status as they get closer to total ascension but that is a subject for Dom3.

Anyways back to the point. Because the pretender is not actually dead, merely discorporated, the priestly function of call god, and all other priestly abilities remain at full power. The consciousness and link with all his worshippers and priests remains as long as the pretender does not suffer "final death" ie- all dominion is extinguished. This can be so traumatic that the loss can cause a corporeal pretender to disintigrate immediately. The effect would be permanent. Restoring worship some years down the line would do no good because the pretender is not waiting on the other side to be called back. He is permanently dissolved.

So we need an unbroken span of dominion from the start of attaining demigod status and on through the pretenders total existence. Even once ascended, the deity will continue to require worship.

I see how easy it is to digress!

I believe the "Call God" ceremony is a priestly function, and that priests continue to receive power from their god until all dominion is extinguished. Being corporial or "dead" has no bearing on it.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

En Forcer said:
I believe the "Call God" ceremony is a priestly function

In specific cases, it should also involve engineers and workers. How long does it take to build a Sphinx? Hmmm, maybe Arcane Masonry could speed things up?

[Alneyan]

*Off topic alert* Kristoffer, if you do not mind my asking, what exactly would be the religious part of your work as a teacher? While I have had a bit of sociology in the past, anything getting close to religious is seldom taught in French schools, and so I was a bit curious about what would be a course about religion (or comparative religion as you wrote in your hobbies).

Sorry for bringing up this topic here, but your discussion about religion a few Posts before gave me the opportunity to do so, and it seems like as good as thread for this question as any. */Off topic alert*

[Kristoffer O]

Arryn said:
You are SO wrong about this. You have it backwards. Preaching is a "modern" development. Modern in the sense of having arisen with civilization and writing. Pagan religions dating back to prehistoric times, including one of the oldest, Wicca (which remains somewhat popular even today), are much more focused on prayer and ritual and far less on evangelization and dogmatic instruction. Preaching is a tool that was developed to control commonfolk and bend them to the will of their rulers, who in ancient and medieval times were religious figures (or in certain countries even today).

Actually the knowledge on prehistoric religion is very scarce as there is nothing written about it. That is why it is called prehistoric. Only archaeological evidence or in rare cases written sources from other civilizations (often romans) can give us any clues about it.

Wicca is a modern religion (although some adherents would disagree). 1954 Gardner wrote witchcraft today, a book that described a cult that later developed into the Wicca of today. Wicca, like most new age movements claim to be successors of ancient traditions, but those ancient traditions are very little known due to the fact that nothing is written about them.

If you are not religious: It is not preaching that is a tool to control people, it is religion as a whole. A belief system that legitimizes the current state of society, life, death and everything that happens in the world. Personal expressions of faith are not important if you define religion in this way.

The further back in history you go the more prominent religion becomes in legitimizing the rulers.