Are devils worth 7 blood each?

[Huzurdaddi]

What if I want to play a game on a huge map that doesnt become a clamming competition after turn 30-40?

Unless someone is playing Atlantis or is astonishingly competent clams don't really come into the picture until turn 60 or so.

And arent nations like Marignon and TienChi also solutions to devils? (any nations with high priests)

No. Preists are essentially useless against devils devils have very high MR. The solution to devils is usually either ( 1 ) wrathful or ( 2 ) a SC that can tank them. Best to combine ( 1 ) and ( 2 ).

While you might object to the speed at which this happens I do not see how anyone can argue with that delayed investment payoffs should payoff.

I have to say I totally agree with this point. My only objection is ROI on some investments ( IMO soul contracts ROI is a little too high).

In general it is all about ROI vs. the speed at which the game progresses. If you are in a game in which you can be over run in 5 turns then even a 10% ROI may not be sufficient to entice you to invest. However in a game where you would not be badly hurt after 20 turns of war even a 5% ROI would seem godly.

Eliminating long-term strategies would do nothing but take away from why this game is fun.

Totally correct.

I disagree completely with this, in small agressive games resources are better spent in more direct ways then clam hoarding, especially if you are in a war.

I agree. However water gems are not amazingly useful they have some uses boots of quickness, perhaps swords of quick, but in general they are not going to swing the war. Any extras might as well go to clams. I have to say I would love clams going to 2W1N.

About Vamps, I'd agree to remove them the Summon Allies skill. They can easily cast the vampire summoning spell.

That actually makes sense.

I don't know about it being created out of thin air but yes, there is inflation. That's a *good* thing, though. Every game has a natural life cycle and evolves through stages, otherwise research would not be a meaningful element.

That's just an EXCELLENT post KEI. I could quote the whole thing and I pretty much agree with it.

I still think that the ROI on all investment type strategies should be carefully monitored though.

There seems to have been a recent push of people who want the game to *not* evolve by discouraging the use of SC's and other mid/late game tactics, instead favoring the national troops that are more effective in the early game.

Again, excellent. I love the natural progression of the game. I do think that SC's are a *little* too powerful pretty early in the game. And I think that almost all of this "power" comes from life draining weapons. Without them SC's would have a hard time soloing huge armies but yet would still be awesome forces. But I don't think I totally want to get rid of life draining weapons since that is removing a choice from players. Probably a small tweak to the damage of all life draining weapons would be sufficient ( at least in my eyes ).

Abysya is very rushable. And is totally defenceless except a good pretender.

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH! They have 1st rate troops. Please. This is not Miclain we are talking about here.

and that could cast fanaticism

Sermon of courage works dandy.

Short of a rewrite, I am in agreement with those conservatives that don't want to see the system dramatically changed. The game is clearly working, and has an extraordinarily large following, given it's non-commercial nature. To argue that the game is broken, or dramatically unbalanced is ludicrous. It flies in the face of the fact that so many smart people are playing this game, and so few can agree on what constitutes an optimal strategy.

Pretty much dead on. You can still argue though, that tweaks can be made on prices of certian units. Nothing major, just small changes.

[Arryn]

Huzurdaddi said:
Unless someone is playing Atlantis or is astonishingly competent clams don't really come into the picture until turn 60 or so.

I guess I must be "astonishingly" competent because, in my Caelum SP game (Orania, 15 nations) at turn 42 my astral site income is 1/turn and 21/turn from clams. I'd say that a 21:1 clam income ratio is by most anyone's definition "in the picture". The clams (and astral gems) do not change my strategy at all (I could live without any whatsoever), but they are sure handy to have for alchemy, which speeds some of my summonings or forgings by several turns. Oh, and I haven't been diligent in site searching, either. I'd have more clams (from more water gem income) had I been deliberately seeking to maximize my output of clams. As it is, I've just been using the water income I've come across through conquest.

[Huzurdaddi]

guess I must be "astonishingly" competent because, in my Caelum SP game (Orania, 15 nations) at turn 42 my astral site income is 1/turn and 21/turn from clams

Right and 21 per turn does not have the same kind of impact that the frog is talking about. He's talking about the 50-100 astral per turn income which feeds wishing. 21 / turn is nice and you are on the way. In maybe in 10 or 15 turns you will be GTG.

[Arryn]

Huzurdaddi said:
Right and 21 per turn does not have the same kind of impact that the frog is talking about. He's talking about the 50-100 astral per turn income which feeds wishing.

By the time I can have a 50-100 astral/turn income (turn 60-80) I've already effectively won the game (ie: I cannot be stopped), even on a map the size of Orania, and the whole issue of clamhoarding for wishing is thus moot. All wishing does is hasten what will happen anyway. For me that is; YMMV.

The boys at IW have more or less said the same thing re: clams. If you're aggressively expanding and building units, you'll be overrunning the map long before a massive clam-bake will matter. Clam-hoarding only matters if you have a laid-back play style. IMO (which I have said before, as have others), the whole issue of clams is way overblown. Also IMO, those who appear to have the most trouble coping with other's usage of clams have fundamental play style issues and they'll get crushed by opponents regardless, even if clams didn't exist at all. The clams are just adding insult to injury.

[Boron]

Arryn said:

By the time I can have a 50-100 astral/turn income (turn 60-80) I've already effectively won the game (ie: I cannot be stopped), even on a map the size of Orania, and the whole issue of clamhoarding for wishing is thus moot. All wishing does is hasten what will happen anyway. For me that is; YMMV.

You are too optimistic here i think . On a 17 player orania you haven't won already by turn 60-80 . You may have 100 provinces but the map has about 280 provinces .

I think you can't win that quick against 10+ players which are skilled too .
Did you really win once a Mp game on a full house orania on turn 60-80 ? Then congrats .

[Arryn]

Boron, please note the perhaps-too-subtle distinction I made: "won" as defined as "cannot be stopped". There are still many turns to go after such a point before all other players have either been crushed or they've given up. In SP games on Orania I reach that point in the 40s (as the AI is a much weaker adversary), and sometimes as early as the 30s. Just because the map has almost 300 provinces doesn't mean I have to conquer even half of them before I'm certain of a victory. Sometimes all it takes is 10-15% of them. The rest is inevitable.

[Boron]

Arryn said:
Boron, please note the perhaps-too-subtle distinction I made: "won" as defined as "cannot be stopped". There are still many turns to go after such a point before all other players have either been crushed or they've given up. In SP games on Orania I reach that point in the 40s (as the AI is a much weaker adversary), and sometimes as early as the 30s. Just because the map has almost 300 provinces doesn't mean I have to conquer even half of them before I'm certain of a victory. Sometimes all it takes is 10-15% of them. The rest is inevitable.

Sorry but that sounds arrogant . How can you declare you victor in a mp game when you control only 10-15% of orania ? This should quickly lead to an alliance against you and 2-4 allied neighbors should at least weaken you extremely .

You are perhaps the major power in your edge of the world but in the other edge there is probably one who is as strong . So how can you see that you are unstoppable that quick ?
Once you control 40-50% of the map and the other players , especially the 2nd and 3rd biggest have given up you have won but not with only 10-20% of the map .

[Pickles]

I think I agree with everyone here!
Late game your gem income can be far higher if you spam gem items than if not but you have to survive. Diplomacy can sometimes replace armies for this MP. These strategies give exponential growth while any other growth in the game is not exponential. In general late game admin means I am not interested in playing game with more than about 10 provinces each or 120 ish in total. PLus I prefer the early wars & using the whole of the tech tree. So while I do think the game is a bit flawed in way I think it is soluble without any code changes by choosing maps that suit me. Admittedly if I liked teching all the way before I attacked anyone I might have issues.

So to slightly drag this in another direction has anyone considered ULM spamming. I played one MP game and was able to get a Forge of the Ancients. This with a smith (or hammer) reduces the cost of a fever fetish to one fire & one nature gem & allows any mage to make them. It reduces clams to 3S if you can get a water (1) mage.
This is a 2 turn payback or worst case - alchemising fire into nature - 5 turn.

Now that is insane growth - too much to be bothered with for me after only 30 ish but it does not take long for that to be a ludicrous number of fetishes or clams. The fire gems can be alchemised to pay for scouts to carry them.

Around turn 30 when the forge is likely to be researched Ulm will have at least 30 smiths so even one turns use of the forge would allow 30 fetishes - adding 90 earth gems to the cost makes them 5 gems each. Or if you get 2 turns use 3.5 gems each. I think the forge saved me its cost almost every turn I had it up, it is grotesque but especially for spamming.

I also got contracts for 20 slaves (from an empowered smith) which makes the ROI very good, (& I did lose at least one to a horror attack). You can make this 10 for one smith if you use the unique hammer but it may need a second empowering.

Anyway there you have a truly horrible exponential micro hell of forging

Hmm lost the plot now

dum dum

Pickles

[Boron]

That game was a bad example though pickles

You were in a very special , extremely good position diplomacywise . I as arco was at peace with you so i had no interest in dispelling your forge . The only other good astralnation in the game , Ryleh was very peaceful too .


But normally dispelling is not so easy . If you can avoid it you always avoid it normally because you never know how many gems your opponent put into it and so unless verylategame or because you are at war with the one with Forge up it is not so likely to get dispelled .