Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT's.

[Fabfire]

JaM said:
Sorry so late, but i have problems to find this buletin.It is writen in Slovak and too technical, so im not able to translate it corectly.But there were two tables. Tab.1 with sumary of comparation fire with sabot ammunition at 1000m with gun fitted externally:
N500 ................ N250
TK.....2A46....YA1.........2A46....YA1
Y......81.......95..............48........67
Z......43.......95..............10........62

Y- horisontal
Z-vertical
N500- percentual share of hits on tagret, in 500mm distance from middle of target
N250- percentual share of hits on target, in 250mm distance from middle of target


Tab.2 is propability of hit from T-72 tank with first shot using APFSDS round at 2000m

Propability with tank gun Rate
2A46..........YA1..........YA1/2A46
0,57..........0,7.............1,23


YA1 is prototype of 2A46MS tank gun.Those tests were made in 1998.

I can send you by mail scanned pages.

Thank you. This is very interesting info.

If there is not any inconvenience to you, I would like to take a look at the scanned pages. My e-mail address: fprado@fprado.com

Best regards,

Fab

[Alpha]

hi fabio,

thanx for all the info.

i agree mainly with your thoughts...but can´t comment on it
seriously cause i don´t know the game mechanism good enough. i played the DOS version of this game only a short time, but now it´s another matter and i like this win version very much.

i also come from SPWAW and i know your name and the others you mentioned, perhaps you also remember me from the matrix forum, my name there was (is ? ) frank w.

yes, your page is cool, this is the reason i want you post my stuff there and also i recommend your page to other wargamers.

perhaps you played H2H ?? check the prices for the russian stuff there. in PBM the russian player can outweight the quite bad accuracy of his tanks with mass. i thought simmilar for this game. but i don´t have enough knowlegde on modern armor...except some websites i read for info on my OOB stuff ( and also some personal experience from my time in the luftwaffe of course i hadn´t much to do with tanks there LOL )...i didn´t touch MBT, APC and IFV at all in my OOB...ohhh i post the the info just here so everyone can read it:

[Alpha]

Fabio: I´ll send it to your email adress at the weekend. need to do some additional testing if formations work in timeframe and if prices are balanced !

--------
Changes:

Weapons added:
--------------

- HK 502 shotgun
- 2 police weapons
- Roland 2 AA missile

Units added:
-----------

- Polizei Trupp ( represent civil police but also "Feldjaeger of the Bundeswehr )
- Bundesgrenzschutz troops ( BGS - paramilitary German forces without conscripts so a bit better exp + morale than normal grunts )
- Luftwaffe Sicherung ( LW - Sich, these are LW troops mainly for the protection of airfields, Nato bunkers, radars, AA instalations etc. )
- Kampfschwimmer ( elite diver troops of the Bundesmarine )
- Pionierpanzer 2 Dachs ( impr. version of PioPz. 1 )
- Roland 2 FlaRak ( impr. version of Roland 1 )
- AA MG unit
- Mehrzweck Raupe ( Bulldozer - use like eng. tanks )
- Gep. LKW ( represents armored trucks like in use at the balcans KFOR )
- some fort types added

Most of these units you´ll find in the "misc" folder.....


Changes to:
-----------

Mountain troops, Boxer IFV, PzH2000, Bell UH1D, SP mortars ammo loadout ( older lowered ) , Alouette carry lowered, Luchs, Wiesel 1 + 2, Kraka, Stinger now Fliegerfaust 2, some names changed....and much other stuff. ( for example i found a wiesel in the orig OOB with 21 (!!) TOW missiles - corrected to real loadout of 8 ! )
-------------

[Fabfire]

Alpha said:
Fabio: I´ll send it to your email adress at the weekend. need to do some additional testing if formations work in timeframe and if prices are balanced !

--------
Changes:

Weapons added:
--------------

- HK 502 shotgun
- 2 police weapons
- Roland 2 AA missile

Units added:
-----------

- Polizei Trupp ( represent civil police but also "Feldjaeger of the Bundeswehr )
- Bundesgrenzschutz troops ( BGS - paramilitary German forces without conscripts so a bit better exp + morale than normal grunts )
- Luftwaffe Sicherung ( LW - Sich, these are LW troops mainly for the protection of airfields, Nato bunkers, radars, AA instalations etc. )
- Kampfschwimmer ( elite diver troops of the Bundesmarine )

- Pionierpanzer 2 Dachs ( impr. version of PioPz. 1 )
- Roland 2 FlaRak ( impr. version of Roland 1 )
- AA MG unit
- Mehrzweck Raupe ( Bulldozer - use like eng. tanks )
- Gep. LKW ( represents armored trucks like in use at the balcans KFOR )
- some fort types added

Most of these units you´ll find in the "misc" folder.....


Changes to:
-----------

Mountain troops, Boxer IFV, PzH2000, Bell UH1D, SP mortars ammo loadout ( older lowered ) , Alouette carry lowered, Luchs, Wiesel 1 + 2, Kraka, Stinger now Fliegerfaust 2, some names changed....and much other stuff. ( for example i found a wiesel in the orig OOB with 21 (!!) TOW missiles - corrected to real loadout of 8 ! )
-------------

That's it. Ladies and gentlemen, by the weekend, a new revised German OOB by Alpha will be available at the Armorsite's WinSPMBT Page! Enjoy!

[Fabfire]

Alpha said:
hi fabio,

thanx for all the info.

i agree mainly with your thoughts...but can´t comment on it
seriously cause i don´t know the game mechanism good enough. i played the DOS version of this game only a short time, but now it´s another matter and i like this win version very much.

i also come from SPWAW and i know your name and the others you mentioned, perhaps you also remember me from the matrix forum, my name there was (is ? ) frank w.

yes, your page is cool, this is the reason i want you post my stuff there and also i recommend your page to other wargamers.

perhaps you played H2H ?? check the prices for the russian stuff there. in PBM the russian player can outweight the quite bad accuracy of his tanks with mass. i thought simmilar for this game. but i don´t have enough knowlegde on modern armor...except some websites i read for info on my OOB stuff ( and also some personal experience from my time in the luftwaffe of course i hadn´t much to do with tanks there LOL )...i didn´t touch MBT, APC and IFV at all in my OOB...ohhh i post the the info just here so everyone can read it:

Yep. I remember H2H pretty well. Excellent mod. Let's wait the upcoming patch that Andy and Don are working on right now and then we'll look at the possibilities. I'm saying this because it seems that the OOBS are an item which are receiving "special treatment"...

So, I will hold until I can see what changes the new OOBS included in the patch will bring (specially in the area of MBT's main gun accuracy), before making any more OOB tweaking. But I agree with your concept 100%.

Best regards,

Fab

[Alpha]

thx. yeahh, better wait for patch.

btw: this animal is missing also from teh ger OOB:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Zwijntje.JPG

( guess what it is ? ) LOL

[Fabfire]

Alpha said:
thx. yeahh, better wait for patch.

btw: this animal is missing also from teh ger OOB:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Zwijntje.JPG

( guess what it is ? ) LOL

Isn't it the "Keiler"? ROTFL

[kevineduguay1]

Hello folks!

I finnaly made it onto this site.

M256, I like your ideas with the 120mm guns but also look at the sabot range as this effects long range hitting power also. Notice that the latter Russian 125mm guns have a greater sabot range than most if not all the 120mm's. This has to be looked at especially when in another post it was pointed out that the Russian ammo lost energy more quickly than the rounds used by Western countries.

[Alpha]

seems the "keiler" is build using a M48 hull.

so i could use this as base, but what armor vlues should
be chosen for the turret armor ( i mean the keiler has no turret ) how is this calculated by the game ?

[kevineduguay1]

M256,

Another thing to consider when looking at accuracy is the ammunition as mentioned in one of the above posts.

There are no less than 6 versions of the M256 gun in the US OOB. All have improvements in sabot penetration. This just cannot be. The reason is that there are only 4 DU penetrators.
IMHO the first one, the M829 was not very efficient and was not the kill all bullet the Army was looking for. It also had some accuracy problems. So for these reasons I would suggest changing weapon #100-120mm M256 86 to Accuracy--11 Sabot Pen--52.

The next gun shows up in 1988, the time of the "Silver Bullet", the M829A1. This is weapon # 101. Accuracy for this gun should be kicked up to 12 or 13 and the Sabot Pen up from 62 to 82. This round was going through sand burms and still destroying T-72s. You may want to up the Sabot Range to 125 also.

Weapon #102 120mm M256-91 should be a clone of the 1988 weapon. I cant find any improvements to either the gun tube or ammunition to warrent any changes. The real changes may be on the Tank itself.

Weapon #247 120mm M256-94 Introduces the M256 A2. This penetrator is a vasts improvement in hitting pover and accuracy over the "Silver Bullet"(A1). Moving at least 100M/Sec faster and with a better designed pennetrator this is a very accurate round and leathal at longer ranges. With this in mind I suggest a Accuracy rating of 13 to 14 and a Sabot Pen of 95. Sabot Range could remain at 125. There should also be a change to the HEAT PED from 60 to 78. 1994 is when the M830A1 was fielded. This HEAT round was more accurate and out performed the original M830 against light armoured vehicles by 30%. Can be used as an AP round and against helicopters

The last M829 Sabot/DU began mass production in 2001 or 02 and is now in use. This is the M829A3. One source that I found says that this round has a 70% better kill ability over the M829A2 and a 30% to 70% better hit probability. I have some doubts on these figures. But consider this, the first M829 rounds weighed about 41+ pounds. This one is stated as being just under 56 pounds. With all the composit materials to reduce the weight of the round and reduce barrel ware, how much does the penetrator weigh now? My best guess with out sabot is 5 or more kg. This round is described as having increased velocity and more long range accuracy. It was designed to defeat all armored threats even those protected by ERA. With this in mind I would kick this weapon up a notch!
The weapon is #105 120mm M256-03. Sabot Pen 100, Sabot Range 130.

We still have weapon #125 120mm M256-07 to deal with.
In the future there will be inprovements in the ammunition for the 120mm gun. If you dont belive that then just use weapon #124 140mm NATO10. reduce the ammo load out a little and mount it on an Abrams.

However, If you think we can and will improve things, try this.
Accuracy 15, HE Kill-16, Sabot Pen-1010. Sabot Range-135, HEAT Pen-82.
Its not the 140mm but its close!

Hope this helps with future OOBs. Now its time to work on the 25mm!

All above info is just a suggestion and is based on everthing I could find in books and on the web. I edited because I had to do a date check for when the rounds in question were actually available.