HMGs/MMGs and LMGs.

[PN79]

Hallo all
I have a question about czechoslovak "7.92mm vz26 LMG"
Standard stats are 21 accuracy and 5 HE kill. These stats have also british ".303in Bren LMG" and german "7.9 MG26(t) LMG" but yugoslavian "7.92mm VZ30J" has 9 accuracy and 8 HE kill and romanian "ZB30 LMG" has 19 acc and 5 HE kill.
Why Yugoslavian and Romanian LMGs have different stats?

[Smersh]

I don't think this has been answered yet: what determines the kill number?

that would make MG stats (and weapons stats, in general) much clearier.

Because I continue to beleive that a HMG/MMG should have a higher kill number than an lmg and certainly more than a single BAR. (there is already a thread about lmgs and BARs)

I'm not asking for any changes per se, but I would like an explanation. we have had some good comments already.

[thatguy96]

You know the descriptions of weapon stats is included in the MOBHack manual.

HE Kill - the value of the round at killing soft targets. Bigger is better!.

The HEK value is determined in large part by the dimensions of the round the weapon fires, with things like number of guns (in a multi-gun system), and ROF playing roles as well. Continuous fire is something that appears difficult to model, while ammo supply it totally dependant on ammo values for the unit (don't see why an HMG automatically has to have more ammo than an LMG/MMG either).

So basically you have two versions of the same weapon, one for the LMG role and one for the HMG/MMG role. The size of the round the gun fires and its cyclic rate are not different between the two. Its accuracy is, given that the HMG/MMG in the sustained fire role, etc, are usually mounted on a tripod or are otherwise static when firing, unlike other infantry weapons where accuracy is degraded by being on the move. As has already been mentioned, Class 3 MG units also have benefits that basic inf units with Class 2 LMGs do not.

[DRG]

PN79 said:
Hallo all
I have a question about czechoslovak "7.92mm vz26 LMG"
Standard stats are 21 accuracy and 5 HE kill. These stats have also british ".303in Bren LMG" and german "7.9 MG26(t) LMG" but yugoslavian "7.92mm VZ30J" has 9 accuracy and 8 HE kill and romanian "ZB30 LMG" has 19 acc and 5 HE kill.
Why Yugoslavian and Romanian LMGs have different stats?

Somebody made a mistake.

Now fixed

Don

[Smersh]

HE Kill - the value of the round at killing soft targets. Bigger is better!.

I meant more, what determines the number. I have been looking at LMG and HMG/MMG stats , and it only seems to consider size of bullet (caliber) and ROF.

ex.

-Maxim HMG kill of 5, rate of fire (in reality) 500rpm.

-Mg42 MMG kill of 10, rate of fire (in reality) 1000-1200rpm.

-Most Mgs had a rate of fire of around 500rpm, and a >7mm<8mm bullet, the most common kill number is 5. This seems to show that indeed ROF is the biggest determining factor in determing the kill number.

Now, Should magazine size, etc. not be counted? here are some numbers:

LMGs: BAR* 20 round magazine, Dp LMG 47 round magazine, Bren LMG 30 round magazine, all have a kill of 5. Mg34/42 50 round drum/belt kills of 8 and 10.

(*I'm counting the Bar as an LMG here)

HMG/MMGs: Nearly all HMG and MMGs were fired using a 250 round belt. yets, the maxim hmg has the same kill stats as the dp, and Mg34/42 mmgs have the same stats as the lmg variant (differing only in accuracy, as already pointed out)

edit: If indeed the kill number is determined by ROF and caliber there is some inconsistency in smg kill numbers.

-a ppsh-41 SMG had a rate of fire of 900rpm compared to the 500rpm of the mp40 SMG and they have the same kill number, 5.

-the M3 "grease gun" SMG has the same kill of 6 as the thompson SMG despite it having (in reality) a rate of fire of 400rpm compared to the thompsons 700rpm.

[DRG]

Re-read Narwans post #427946

narwan said:
"The game is a lot more than just stats.

And after he said that were still back debating minor stats.

The ppsh-41 SMG fired 7,62x25 and mp40 SMG fired 9x19mm ammo

The M3 and Thompson fired .45 cal.

BIG difference when it comes to knocking someone down.

Since we don't have numbers that start at say... 50 for what we use now for 5 we cannot split hairs too much ( we cannot make one gun a 52 and another a 57 ) so the decision was made at some point way in the past that the ppsh-41 and the mp40 would be 5 and the heavier .45 cal SMG's would be a 6. Now, some could argue ( becasue that's what some people do ) that the higher ROF for the PPS should give it an edge on the MP40 so if the MP40 is 5....what's the PPsh ? 6? If the faster firing ppsh-41 is a 6 what's the slower firing M3 firing an undeniably a better man stopper .45 cal round ? A 6 as well ? Or do we downgrade the M3 to a five but wait..... we cannot do that or the M3 ends up with the same HEK as the MP40 with it's pathetic little 9mm round ? No... I guess we make the M3 a 6 but now what to do with the Thompson ? If a 400 rpm M3 is a 6 then the 700 RPM Thompson "Has" to be a 7 ??

NO it doesn't so it was decided quite some time ago that the ppsh-41 and the MP40's are 5 and the M3 and Thompson are a 6.

OK?

Play the game, it's more fun that debating stats

Don

[Smersh]

ok, that is understandable. I can see how it can get complicated.

I know the game is more than stats. I'm "debating" about a real practical issue and not just a minor number, something that affects the game- Machine gun deadliness.

DRG, you explained the last minor part of my post, and its a good answer. what about the main point of this thread HMG/MMG vs LMG I made, u didn't address that. But I can see this is going no-where.

[narwan]

Smersh said:
DRG, you explained the last minor part of my post, and its a good answer. what about the main point of this thread HMG/MMG vs LMG I made, u didn't address that. But I can see this is going no-where.

If you'd read my post you'd see a good explanation why HMG's and MMG's are a lot more powerful than LMG's WHEN THEY HAVE THE SAME STATS.
Double the range also seems a fairly important factor which was also mentioned before.
As a pretty experienced player I can tell you HMG's and MMG's are VASTLY more powerful than lmg's. Why? Splash and range. It's that simple.

Narwan

[Smersh]

nice, definitve answer.

[chuckfourth]

Hi DRG
Yes the .45 sure has some punch, of course it is a pistol round origionally, adopted after the 1900 phillipines campaign when the .38 was found to be too light to stop charging tribesman. But nothing is all bad, the 45 pays for its punch by exerting a lot of recoil and so makes the gun firing it harder to keep on target, especially on automatic. Anyway the point I would make is that the 'pathetic' little 9mm round produces a lot less recoil allowing the MP or ppsh to stay on target longer. So bottom line is that that MP40 or ppsh will put more rounds into the area of interest than the thompson or M3 and thus increase the chances of a hit. In the game I guess this could be used as justification to increase mp40, ppsh ect accuracy from 1 to 2? And of course being hit by a 9mm might not take a football sized chunk out of you but youll probably still want to report to sick bay anyway. This being the case Im not sure the .45 deserves the extra hit points.
Anyway apologies in advance for what you no doubt find an irritating post.
Best Regasrds Chuck.