Are we paying more for less?

[Frostmourne27]

Hmmmm... who was it that said "anything is worth what the market will pay for it"?

Dominions 3 may be priced more highly than many of us think is really reasonable, especially for a small game, but they aren't the market. Neither are those of use who think it's a good deal. The market is everyone that could conceivably consider purchasing the game (that includes us, but there are WAY more than the couple hundred or so people that lair within these forums.) Dominions 3 set records with shrapnel sales for number of copies sold. Not knowing how big the market is, its hard to say what percent of people that looked at/will look at it bought it, but since so many did, and the market isn't HUGE, as this is a bit of a niche game, it kind of makes me think that most people that consider buying the game either buy it, or don't because they don't like the demo/the combat/the concept etcetera.

I seriously doubt the many of the thousands of people who will buy the game will really give the price a whole lot of consideration. Either it's a good game and they buy it, or it's a piece of EA-like trash and they won't - for most people, you need to change the price quite a lot before they actually don't buy something. Going the other way, you don't have to change the price quite as much maybe, but you lose a LOT of money.

Now for some ugly, unpleasant mathematics (Yuck!):
Assuming that Shrapnel sells three thousand copies of Dominions 3(I'm pulling numbers out of the air here, I think the real figure is a LOT higher) at 55$, they make 165 000 dollars less expenses, including the insane cost of printing the 300 page manual (printing is a VERY lucrative business). If they [Shrapnel Games] lower the price even one dollar, the make only 162 000 dollars -they need to sell 56 extra copies to recoup their loss of profit. But now one cares about one dollar - So let's say that they lower prices by ten dollars. Are they going to find the 666.66 new buyers they need to make it worth it? Possibly, but I really doubt it. Whether or not the game is good value for its price as compared to other purchases is irrelevant - Shrapnel is making money, and we can hardly expect them to be stupid - they should maximize their profits since that’s how the western style free market economy works.
However, if time spent enjoying your self per cent spent is your concern, I say two things: 1) You care too much about economics, and 2) Dominions 3 probably isn't worth it, but I doubt that ANY computer games really are. Bloodstar, I REALLY doubt that anyone will spend 1000 hours playing Heroes 5 - that’s like three hours a day, FOR EVERY DAY OF THE YEAR! (Do you have a life? A family? a job? Do you sleep?) That said, I doubt anyone will play Dominions 3 for 1000 hours either. And about the manual - we really should shut up about it. No offence to Bruce, but really - were buying a game, not a book. It's nice to have a good manual, BUT ITS NOT A SELLING POINT! Very few people look at two strategy games and say Oooo- this one has a nicer manual, I think I'll take it. Evidence: EA sells games, and their manuals, like their games, are crap.

Sorry if my tone is a little offensive, and my thoughts incoherent...

[Talleyrand]

Thanks for your concern, Kris, but I don't care much for Shrapnel's fondness of me. I call it like I see it. If I get banned, then fare thee well.

[Valandil]

There is actually another concern. In order to expand the market, therby allowing more future buisness, and in order to retain the existing consumer base, shrapnel also needs to price slightly below optimal return. Of course this is only true if illwinter/shrapnel continue to make/sell games, but I consider this likely.

[Archonsod]

Why? It's actually slightly cheaper than most new releases, at least in UK pricing. EA don't seem to have a problem selling games at £30, and they're not exactly looking at a shrinking market...

[Taqwus]

I'd think that the bigger obstacle to expanding the market is that the target audience is, frankly, quite small. The number of people willing to invest the time and attention necessary to enjoy games of this nature is far, far smaller than the market for more familiar, intuitive, prettier, or shorter instant-gratification games.

You wouldn't expect World in Flames, Advanced Squad Leader or Combat Mission to sell like hotcakes if priced at $10, either. Few people would play them, even if they were free, because it takes a fairly rare bird to enjoy them. For their audience they're quite good, but that audience is small.

[Kristoffer O]

I would prefer to have you here. I think and hope that you opinions on the game are valuable to us and other players.

[Agrajag]

Frostmourne27 said:
However, if time spent enjoying your self per cent spent is your concern, I say two things:...2) Dominions 3 probably isn't worth it, but I doubt that ANY computer games really are.

Actually, I think that on a time spent enjoying yourself per dollar scale, Dominions 3 will do very very well.
After playing Dominions 2, I'd be surprised if I got less than 55 hours of Dom3 goodness (and I expect much much more, but this number is obviously for example purposes).
For 55 hours of goodness I pay 55$, so that's 1$ for an hour of entertainment, which is much better than paying 5$ for two hours of fun at the movies, or I-don't-know-how-much-but-I-bet-its-more-than-one-dollar dollars for one hour of fun with a prostitute, and yet lots of people do both of those :O
As for Dominions3 VS. other computer games, I think Dominions3 wins by far on the time spent enjoying yourself per dollar scale, there's just so much content to explore that I'd expect several times the time playing Dominions3 than other full priced games (especially EA stuff ).

Bloodstar, I REALLY doubt that anyone will spend 1000 hours playing Heroes 5 - that’s like three hours a day, FOR EVERY DAY OF THE YEAR! (Do you have a life? A family? a job? Do you sleep?) That said, I doubt anyone will play Dominions 3 for 1000 hours either.

Alternatively, its about 1 hour per weekday for about 4 years, which doesn't sound that unreasonable. (Though I don't expect anyone but the most hard core to play for 4 years straight with no breaks)

And about the manual - we really should shut up about it. No offence to Bruce, but really - were buying a game, not a book. It's nice to have a good manual, BUT ITS NOT A SELLING POINT! Very few people look at two strategy games and say Oooo- this one has a nicer manual, I think I'll take it. Evidence: EA sells games, and their manuals, like their games, are crap.

Well, I think that a good manual is a selling point, here are some explanations why:
1) As I understand it, there was some complaint regarding the Dom2 manual for not being that good, so an improved manual should make those complainers happier.
2) Dominions is a very complex game, and as such, it needs a thorough manual.
3) The manual is the only difference between a legal copy, and an illegaly obtained copy.
4) Manuals are cool.

Sorry if my tone is a little offensive, and my thoughts incoherent...

That's just the Dreamlands dominion getting to you.

[Nerfix]

Yeah, it's just the Dominion. Ctulhu ftaghn and so on.

[Bloodstar2]

OK, I obviously have 18 hours working day like Shrapnel today.

Listen, let's calm down - I don't want that this become unobjective harrasment of fanboys toward me or anybody who says his opinion. I already have seen this kind of behaviour at Paradox Entertainent boards and Matrix boards. We can tell all our opinion in a civilized way - and hell I don't have intention to argue with hudreds of angry fans (

First, I own web shop for selling PC & video games etc... Also I was game journalist for more than ten years, I know all big faces of games industry. No, I am not boasting but my knowledge of game industry is very big.

Dominions 3 is not the game like World of Warctaft for example. I bought some quantities of WoW for selling on my web shop and suddenly Blizzard have lowered the prices of that game so now I am selling this game at 0 profit lol.
So, I am not arguing LOWERING prices of the games now just for the sake of arguing. Dominions 3 is different game than most of retail games and D3 price once set will not go down like Quake 4 etc...

Why I pulled Heroes 5 out? Believe it or not that is main competitor now to Dominions 3!It's TBS, and fantasy. Heroes 5 have some diffenence to Dom 3 - it's big mainstream title but that don't nececary means that it is bad. Quite contrary, Nival, Russian dev., have pulled excellent job, game is even selling with nVidia 7900 cards bundled, graphics is gorgeus and gameplay is excellent.
Now, due to it's nature HOMM 5 is quite expensive game - first Ubi Soft payed 1.3 MILLION US$ just to get rights for now defunct 3DO (ok for whole M&M universe), then game alone costed VERY, VERY MUCH to produce, I think 5-10 million $, marketing and PR cost were also high.

Now what this have to do with Dominions 3 you may ask?

Well, as much as you can argue that Dom 3 is artistic, niche, mumbo jumbo, indie game, small budget, less copies expected to sell etc... BUT! Again, for me it is quite ridiculous and slap in the face of the fans (at least those who can rationally asses this situation) to price this game at 55 $.

Suggestet retail price for HOMM5 is 49.95 $. Many web sites are selling HOMM5 for 40 $ or even as low as 30$!. Now, if you had set price for Dominion 3 to 49.95 $ same like HOMM 5 that is even then higher than HOMM 5 as retail outlets and web shops will have relatively smaller prices on HOMM5.

All, arguing that Shrapnel knows best what price to put, OK, I can agree with that, but that don't means that I must comply with that reasoning and yes I have bought the game but certanly will not do that again if Shrapnel again decide to slap mi in the face.

Even my opinion is here not important - it's important how you treat your fans. I am not attacking Shrapnel and this is quite honest my approach to them so I politely ask that fans cool down and that they don't need to defend Shrapnel. I didn't attacked them, I just have expressed my opinion on this. So, fans cool down please.

I have no objections to pay even 99$ for NEW ORIGINAL DESIGN AND NEW GRAPHICS ETC:.. Of course nobody will charge that much but I have gladly payed 65 $ for Distant Guns game from SES. It is about Russo Japanese war and game that fits my term - niche within a niche. Developers have made a game about obscure war, very brave move, they didn't followed usssual approach Normandy - Bulge - Market Garden that many wargaming companies do.

Dominions 3 is SEQUEL, it is great game I am sure but it is a sequel. Even manual is not excuse to price it at 55$.

Now, you can all disagree with me, I have getting used to Usenet and have thick skin in that regard and I will stick with my opinion.

I will play the game but bitter taste will remain.

But, I will certanly not put my head in the sand and applaud any move that I don't feel it is right. Sorry just cannot do that.

Regards to everyone and no hard feelings ok.


Mario

[DominionsFan]

Bloodstar2 said:
HOMM 5 is quite expensive game - first Ubi Soft payed 1.3 MILLION US$ just to get rights for now defunct 3DO (ok for whole M&M universe), then game alone costed VERY, VERY MUCH to produce, I think 5-10 million $, marketing and PR cost were also high.

I bought that game. I've played it for like 2 weeks only, because it was boring for me. I've never found Doms 2. boring. Interesting isn't it? You cannot compare games, because well all have our subjective opinions [and own experience] about them.