Andean Zorro - MA/diff_research/VPs - game started

[Dragar]

My understanding was that there is no 'rule' per se that governs treaties/pacts etc, its up to the player to trust the other party. Of course, any broken NAP should be made public so that the offender's reputation is tarnished, but I've always found the capacity to backstab is what makes diplomacy in multiplayer games potentially so exciting. I'm always too proud of my reputation to do it, but it always adds spice to a game when it happens

[Kheldron]

Ok then.
To add spice, I'd like you all to know Pangea was the one asking for the treaty while Ashdod was biting at his hoofs a few turns ago.

Since he sent his god and about 500 troops to me, all those of you that have an interest in his whereabouts or want to uphold any honor in this game shall feel free to go and plunder his lands, he won't have much to defend.

Enjoy!

[Calahan]

Yes it is true, the Ruler of the Groves found it necessary to commit the age old, and well practiced art of treachery against the flight gifted ones, and no defence is sought for our actions. But surely the ancient High Seraphs must have realised that a time would come when other nations no longer turned a blind eye to their quest for domination of this world. The wise rulers of the skies must have known their plan to swallow up any neighbour smaller than themselves, until none remained, would not go unnoticed forever. Indeed, I foresee the other nations of the world rejoicing at the news that someone is prepared to stand against the growing might of Caelum.

So while Pangaea can be considered the villain in this particular chapter of history, it is Caelum's over aggressive actions that has made the writing of it a necessity. As we found it impossible to merely sit and watch another smaller nation fall victim to the powerful gaze from the Eye of Caelum. We consider Marignon to be our friends, and Caelum's decision to engage them in open hostilities has forced the Maenad hordes to respond accordingly.

Marignon will not be the latest casualty of Caelum's glory seeking, as it is they themselves who will be the eventual victims of their war.

[Calahan]

My understanding of NAP's was that, like Drager said, NAP's are not 100% binding unless stated in the rules for the particular game you are playing.

Some games also state that NAP's are binding if they are officially declared in the game thread (see the EA DarkParadise game for an example of this), but any secret NAP's made are not subject to the same binding rules as the public ones. I guess it is only fair that if you are not prepared to tell anyone about your secret NAP's, then you can't really expect anyone to listen to your complaints when your secret NAP's get broken. From reading numerous posts on these forums, it seems that most of the time NAP's are honoured, but backstabbing is part of the risk of NAP's (know your enemies well, but know your allies even better) and a part of MP games in general.

I'm sure I read somewhere (although I could well have either imagined it, or merged many separate comments into one) that one of the reasons the devs haven't put any official game diplomacy options into the game is because they don't want any. As Dominions is meant to be a fight to the death (there can be only one etc.) so the only diplomacy that really exists is to make sure that you
(a)give the other nations a good reason NOT to attack you (ie. becoming the most powerful is a good deterrent)
(b)don't give them a reason TO attack you (ie. becoming the most powerful is a sure way of encouraging others to gang-up on you)
(c)don't give them an opportunity TO attack you (ie. don't stretch your forces too thinly by starting lots of wars)
All of the above is obviously a difficult balancing act, with (a) and (b) being a great example of a blatant contradiction!!! But then that's just another part of the this great game in my view :-)

But I am still a newb, so all of the above is just a collection of my thought on NAP's, and what I've read in many various threads on the subject. Apologies to everyone (and a HUGE apology to Kheldron) if I have broken a golden rule of MP-games that I'm unaware of, although as far as I can tell I haven't done. (I don't think breaking NAP's is held on anywhere near the same level as, or generates as much anger as for example, the whole 'Mists of Deception + Retreat' issue)

I don't generally make a habit of breaking NAP's (easy to say that now of course :-)) although I accept the risk of the 'tarnishing brush' being swept vigorously over my reputation as a result of me breaking a NAP. All that is left to say is that my mouse hand was forced into doing it by Marignon's threatened destruction. Either that or my Maenad's 'Sat-Navs' are playing up, and found themselves in Caelum's lands instead of Ashdod's :-)

[Janlm]

I for one is very happy to see at least one deciding to take the right decision and punish the war mongering Caelum, who attacked us with no reason or no warning. I have personally seen the result of their attack on the general population, and believe me when I say its not pretty. The world will be a better place without the evil of Caelum, and we will do ours to make sure it happens!

Marignon

[BigDisAwesome]

Janlm said:
I for one is very happy to see at least one deciding to take the right decision and punish the war mongering Caelum, who attacked us with no reason or no warning. I have personally seen the result of their attack on the general population, and believe me when I say its not pretty. The world will be a better place without the evil of Caelum, and we will do ours to make sure it happens!

Marignon

You talk as though Pangaea is a saint.
One piece of advice is to be careful against him. Right now I'm learning the hard way that huge amounts of chaff seem to fare better in this high research game than others.

I'm surprised to see Pangaea attacking 2 of his neighbors that were looking for peace now. Who's next on your list? Perhaps you should watch out for him Pythium.

[anticipatient]

I feel inclined to note for other observers of this altercation that we're only hearing from the participants themselves, and they are all biased.

I laud Pangaea for standing against a perceived oppressor, but I condemn them for their treachery. Were it not for their relations with Ashdod, I may consider them heroes. While Caelum is aggressive in the extreme, having consumed one nation and wasting no time in moving on to the next, I would say a better course of action for Pangaea would have been to pursue peace with Ashdod.

If Pangaea were truly interested in protecting Marignon and had thought it through, perhaps a better tactic would've been to maintain border tensions with Caelum, thereby making it more difficult for Caelum to commit to a full scale assault on Marignon.

That said, I am not attempting to vilify anyone. My goal is the same as Caelum's, the same as everyone's. And in Pangaea's situation, I would've fought against Caelum as well.

May I remind everyone that the condition of victory in this conflict is the control of five capitols. Caelum as two. Marignon's becomes a third. Pangaea's would make a fourth. Who else is then neighboring Caelum? Perhaps a better question would be, who is NOT then neighboring Caelum? And who is NOT then threatened?

I am both impressed with Caelum's success and threatened by it. I anticipate a somewhat scathing reply, despite my fairly neutral appraisal of the situation. But anyone knows that dominance in this game brings hostile attention . . . as it should.

[Kheldron]

My...poor poor Pangeans fighting against the evil almighty ogre of Caelum

What I see is the biggest army in the world and an overpowered deified gorgon taking advantage of a former ally to increase his dominion.

You don't *have* to justify you warmongering with my so-called agressivity you know? You're just a bloody monster and can't help your nature ?
YOU were the one to ask for a NAP when you were wounded by Ashdod and I the one who could have striked at you and chosed peace instead, remember? That was only 2-3 months ago.
I for one uphold my honor and would not have gone to such depth.

Let it be known in the taverns of the world and the underworld, Pangeans are the most treacherous people of all.
Hail to all those of you who make him bleed for that!

In the meantime, we shall proudly fight to the death, which may not be ours.

Nekraal