Paralysis is overpowered.

[K]

Originally Posted by NTJedi

You don't even know the possible formulas which can be used for shrugging off 2-10 turns and you think it's a bad idea?

Considering that the pro-SC crowd won't accept more than a few turns of paralysis for a fully buffed and kitted out SC, then there really doesn't have to be a discussion.

Buffed and kitted SCs can't be killed in a few turns. Heck, they can't even be killed in twenty turns if they regenerate and have something as common as a Fire Shield (and considering how lucky you need to be to get a Paralyze to land, I don't even know why we are having this discussion).

Basically, asking to reduce the duration is the same as asking to have the spell removed from the game. Considering that a reduced duration of any kind makes it less useful for killing Blessed troops and other powerful units, the only question is "how many strategies are the pro-SC crowd willing to ruin?"

[sector24]

Originally Posted by K

Considering that any nerf on the duration of the spell would make it useless against regular armies, and it can be easily countered anyway, any change might as well be a straight deletion of the spell. Simply put, not having a spell on the casting list is better than having a useless spell.

I just have to point out how truly awful this argument is. Let's say we reduced the paralyze duration from 7 turns to 6. Would that make it worthless? Of course not. You are creating an all or nothing scenario where none exists. There may be some way to reduce the paralyze duration to something more acceptable, and maybe it doesn't need to change.

No offense intended, but I mean...come on.

[K]

Originally Posted by sector24

I just have to point out how truly awful this argument is. Let's say we reduced the paralyze duration from 7 turns to 6. Would that make it worthless? Of course not. You are creating an all or nothing scenario where none exists. There may be some way to reduce the paralyze duration to something more acceptable, and maybe it doesn't need to change.

No offense intended, but I mean...come on.

It's only a bad argument if it's taken out of context, as you are doing.

For example, Adept claims in the first post that he sees Paralyzes lasting 20+ turns, and he wants them reduced to d6 +path, with a potential concession of open-ended d6s.

NTJedi wants successful saves to shave 2-10 rounds off per additional MR saves, which for a high MR unit means no Paralyze is lasting more than 10 turns in effect.

You have also asked for open-ended d6s after complaining of a 52 round paralyze, a rather drastic reduction if we accept that 52 round Paralyzes are common.

Except for Executor who asked for a "a little easier to resist or less turn paralyzed", suggestions have been for dramatic reductions in the effectiveness of the spell, therefore in context of the discussion one my argument makes sense. I'll admit I wasn't super-specific when I wrote that bit, but it seems pretty far-fetched that I was arguing against a hypothetical that no one had brought up.

Also, since a one turn reduction is not a "nerf" by any common-sense notion of the idea, it seems that you are criticizing an argument I didn't make.

PS. It is very hard to offend me, but please don't take that as an invitation to try.

[NTJedi]

Originally Posted by K

NTJedi wants successful saves to shave 2-10 rounds off per additional MR saves, which for a high MR unit means no Paralyze is lasting more than 10 turns in effect.

It's inaccurate to say no Paralyze will last more than 10 turns considering no actual formula for removal of 2-10 rounds has been discussed. If the developers were even remotely interested in adjusting paralysis I'd provide an example formula, but I doubt any change will occur for paralysis, allowing the spell to be more realistic.


Please check my previous post.

Here's my summary of what changes should be performed in my opinion.


Summary:
Ideally an option should allow gamers to place their own game settings for the auto-retreat and auto-kill. New types of paralysis spells should be introduced such as ones which effect the targets outside body or inside body or sense of smell or sense of sight. And finally the current spell paralysis which gives the impression of targeting the mind should provide a reduced duration on creatures/beings with strong minds.

[K]

Originally Posted by NTJedi

It's inaccurate to say no Paralyze will last more than 10 turns considering no actual formula for removal of 2-10 rounds has been discussed. If the developers were even remotely interested in adjusting paralysis I'd provide an example formula, but I doubt any change will occur for paralysis, allowing the spell to be more realistic.


Please check my previous post.

After checking your previous post, here is the exact thing you said:

Originally Posted by NTJedi

I think paralysis should allow those paralyzed to have another MR roll each turn, if they succeed the MR roll then an extra 2 to 10 turns of paralysis are removed. Those with strong MR should overcome the paralysis more quickly since battle turns are so limited.

Now, base on simple statistics a high MR unit will make the next ten rolls against Paralysis if he failed once based on the 0.7 chance of failing a save for a MR 25 unit and a base path(as konming has shown, so ask him about the math). I assumed that even with a 60-turn Paralysis, this means an average of 6 turns([2+10]/2) per successful save is shaved off, meaning at the very outside you'd get 10 turns of Paralysis. Yes, I did make a guess that the 2-10 would be evenly distributed, but I think that it's a fair assumption (If the average is lower than 6 then the Paralysis is longer, and if the average is higher than 6 then it is shorter).

So yes, there was actual math at work there based on your suggestion with a little reasonable guesswork and not me misinterpreting what you said for my own purposes.

[NTJedi]

Originally Posted by K

Now, base on simple statistics a high MR unit will make the next ten rolls against Paralysis if he failed once based on the 0.7 chance of failing a save for a MR 25 unit and a base path(as konming has shown, so ask him about the math). I assumed that even with a 60-turn Paralysis, this means an average of 6 turns([2+10]/2) per successful save is shaved off, meaning at the very outside you'd get 10 turns of Paralysis. Yes, I did make a guess that the 2-10 would be evenly distributed, but I think that it's a fair assumption (If the average is lower than 6 then the Paralysis is longer, and if the average is higher than 6 then it is shorter).

So yes, there was actual math at work there based on your suggestion with a little reasonable guesswork and not me misinterpreting what you said for my own purposes.

Okay first mistake you made was assuming these MR rolls which will remove turns will be using the same formula as the one which actually strikes the creature/being with paralysis.

As I wrote earlier there is no current formula, please don't make guesses.

[K]

Originally Posted by NTJedi

Okay first mistake you made was assuming these MR rolls which will remove turns will be using the same formula as the one which actually strikes the creature/being with paralysis.

As I wrote earlier there is no current formula, please don't make guesses.

Considering that there are only two kinds of MR rolls in the game(MR and MR+), I assumed the one most favorable to you(MR).

So yes, you got me. I did not take into account the possibility that you'd ask the designers to redesign the whole game just to make a third kind of MR roll for that one spell so that your proposed model might be reasonable in any way.

[NTJedi]

Originally Posted by K

Basically, asking to reduce the duration is the same as asking to have the spell removed from the game. Considering that a reduced duration of any kind makes it less useful for killing Blessed troops and other powerful units, the only question is "how many strategies are the pro-SC crowd willing to ruin?"

Well first let me say I've been here a long long time and I seriously doubt the developers will make any changes to the current paralyze spell in DOM_3... so you can sleep safely.

Second the reduced duration I mentioned is for addressing two issues, none which have been discussed. The first is because current battle turns have an auto-retreat and an auto-kill too early which conflicts with the duration of battles in history. The auto-kill and auto-retreat were done to prevent a game turn from taking too long, unfortunately despite computers advancing and becoming more powerful the gamers currently have no options for increasing these auto-kill and auto-retreat settings. The paralyze spell basically makes a unit, mage or SC completely worthless for the usually the rest of the battle and if the target is struck with paralyze twice then the unit, mage or SC can be killed not by units but because of a game mechanic due to the auto-kill game turn limit... illogical. The second reason for the suggested reduced duration is because the game links magic resistance and the minds mental strength... hence spells like iron will. The second reason is because it seems only logical a creature of a strong mind(magic_resistance) should be able to break free much more quickly from a mind spell like paralysis compared to say an average militia unit. It's actually baffling to me why size even plays any part for reducing paralysis considering the huge size and seriously low intellect of most dinosaurs.


Summary:
Ideally an option should allow gamers to place their own game settings for the auto-retreat and auto-kill. New types of paralysis spells should be introduced such as ones which effect the targets outside body or inside body or sense of smell or sense of sight. And finally the current spell paralysis which gives the impression of targeting the mind should provide a reduced duration on creatures/beings with strong minds.

[K]

Originally Posted by NTJedi

Well first let me say I've been here a long long time and I seriously doubt the developers will make any changes to the current paralyze spell in DOM_3... so you can sleep safely.

Second the reduced duration I mentioned is for addressing two issues, none which have been discussed. The first is because current battle turns have an auto-retreat and an auto-kill too early which conflicts with the duration of battles in history. The auto-kill and auto-retreat were done to prevent a game turn from taking too long, unfortunately despite computers advancing and becoming more powerful the gamers currently have no options for increasing these auto-kill and auto-retreat settings. The paralyze spell basically makes a unit, mage or SC completely worthless for the usually the rest of the battle and if the target is struck with paralyze twice then the unit, mage or SC can be killed not by units but because of a game mechanic due to the auto-kill game turn limit... illogical. The second reason for the suggested reduced duration is because the game links magic resistance and the minds mental strength... hence spells like iron will. The second reason is because it seems only logical a creature of a strong mind(magic_resistance) should be able to break free much more quickly from a mind spell like paralysis compared to say an average militia unit. It's actually baffling to me why size even plays any part for reducing paralysis considering the huge size and seriously low intellect of most dinosaurs.

Logic vs. magic or abstraction means that magic/abstraction always wins. I could seriously come up with ten different reasons why the turn limit for battles exists based or why Paralyze works the way it does based on real-world examples OR magical reasons based on Dominion's system of magic, so any argument based on "but it doesn't make sense to me" doesn't survive.

This is fantasy, so even bad reasons can be logical.

[NTJedi]

[quote=K;634446][quote=NTJedi;634413]

Originally Posted by K

Logic vs. magic or abstraction means that magic/abstraction always wins. I could seriously come up with ten different reasons why the turn limit for battles exists based or why Paralyze works the way it does based on real-world examples OR magical reasons based on Dominion's system of magic, so any argument based on "but it doesn't make sense to me" doesn't survive.

This is fantasy, so even bad reasons can be logical.

The turn limit on battles has already been discussed in the forums and based on several variables each battle is clearly one day at the most. Ideally this should be improved to be more realistic.

The paralyze spell is a mind targeting spell which is temporary, although long effect. Since it strikes the mind the creatures with more powerful and more developed minds shouldn't suffer the exact same duration as one with a weak mind.

Your last statement of "This is fantasy, so even bad reasons can be logical" is clear you don't care to hold or create a stronger realistic fantasy. Also your posts show you have a tunnel vision view on paralysis.