Turmoil 3 / Luck 3?

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by Jazzepi

You're missing the point. The decision for me is binary, the reason I'm comparion those two scale choices is because they're the most efficient choices for that slot. Either you take O3/M2 or you take T3/L3. There's absolutely no reason to take something in between, unless you enjoy throwing away points for the anti-synery of Order and Luck, in which case you need to rethink your design because you've reached a point where you're wasting points.

That's a silly supposition. By the time you climb past 20 provinces you are often hitting the cap we're all discussing, even with scales that are not optimal event generators.

Also, Misf2 can be more painful for certain nations with exceptionally poor PD. I've seen 20-23 PD get spanked by barbarians a few times as monkey nations, or Nief for example. So what you are saying then, if the only viable combos are O3/Misf2 or T3/L3, and you find the Misf to be too painful with that nation, then you MUST go T3/L3 with those nations to be efficient and competitive.

Also worthy to note that while Misf is exceptionally painful for some, it's much less painful for those with cheap and accessible fortune tellers. The relative value of scales will be different for all nations, depending on what tools they are given. Therefore, it's a far too sweeping generalization to state that these 2 scales must be maxed, and must be maxed in opposition of eachother.

Just as an example also - the 3000g event is only possible through O3/L3, as well as I believe Oleg's Alchemical Machine, which gives a permanent 100g boost to a province.

So it takes you longer for that combination to spool up to maximum effect, but while it does, you are somewhat insulated from disruptive events, and when you are finally getting 3/turn, you are going to be seeing constant and consistent income boosts. Of course, you may argue that such scales are nearly impossible with an awake SC - to which I can only say, "So?".

[Adept]

[quote=JimMorrison;640818]

Originally Posted by Jazzepi

Just as an example also - the 3000g event is only possible through O3/L3

If this is a recent change, then maybe. AFAIK the only requirement is Luck +3, and order has nothing to do with it. I've had this several times, and I never go with maxed out order and luck.

[JimMorrison]

[quote=Adept;640836]

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

If this is a recent change, then maybe. AFAIK the only requirement is Luck +3, and order has nothing to do with it. I've had this several times, and I never go with maxed out order and luck.

Odd, it was stated as such in another thread. After I learned of the scale restrictions on events, I started paying much closer attention. I can't say about previously, but since I learned that, I've only seen that event in a massive scales build, and otherwise the largest I ever seem to get is the 1500g event.

[Falkor]

[quote=JimMorrison;640847]

Originally Posted by Adept

Odd, it was stated as such in another thread. After I learned of the scale restrictions on events, I started paying much closer attention. I can't say about previously, but since I learned that, I've only seen that event in a massive scales build, and otherwise the largest I ever seem to get is the 1500g event.

3000g, "huge amount" of fire gems and a magic item.
You get this event with T3/L3. (if you're lucky )
I've got it many times playing Pangaea with these scales.

[Adept]

[quote=Falkor;640965][quote=JimMorrison;640847]

Originally Posted by Adept

3000g, "huge amount" of fire gems and a magic item.
You get this event with T3/L3. (if you're lucky )
I've got it many times playing Pangaea with these scales.

Yes, I've gotten this one more than once. It only happens when playing with luck +3, but order has nothing to do with it. I've never had Luck +3 without having disorder as well (not always -3).

[SelfishGene]

Taking Luck/Turmoil for money is silly.

Luck/Turmoil is great if you have a big need for gems and gem diversity (aka, Tien Chi). All the free gem events give you a head start into remote site searching, and later on, a ton of extra gems for alchemy/summons. I was receiving i suspect close to 10-15 gems a turn in mp near the end of the game taking Luck/Turmoil.

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by SelfishGene

Taking Luck/Turmoil for money is silly.

Luck/Turmoil is great if you have a big need for gems and gem diversity (aka, Tien Chi). All the free gem events give you a head start into remote site searching, and later on, a ton of extra gems for alchemy/summons. I was receiving i suspect close to 10-15 gems a turn in mp near the end of the game taking Luck/Turmoil.

It's true. I dislike how some people want to froth at the mouth arguing that Order/Misf is better gold than Turmoil/Luck. Well, no kidding. But apparently they don't like extra gems, free magic items, free castles, or national heroes (which for some nations are QUITE good). Also no one factors in the obligatory (albeit relatively minor, in time) investment in PD that is more necessary with Misf. 20 PD = 210g per province. No fortune, but if you have 30 provinces, that's over 6000g dropped into keeping you safe from barbarians.

By the by, in a game with Caelum using 3O/3L/3M, I've been blessed with 2 free castles in the first 20 turns. Kinda nifty, worth keeping unless they're in the WORST possible locations. (ie- screw up production in your capital or other key fort)

[Jazzepi]

To JimMorrison:

>>or "some neutrals attack your province". Mid-> late game the second category type of events you can easily remedy with a modicum of PD if your PD is good, otherwise you can just dump 20 into a province and have basic immunity from those events in that province.<<

I'll just quote myself because I'm a giant elitist douche, and it's fun to pretend like you haven't actually read what I already wrote.

I think Bandar log has /exceptionally/ terrible PD. I mean, there was a huge thread with a guy on here who was convinced that Bandar log's inability to win was based solely on the awfulness of their PD alone. Now, he might have been a big jerk, but he was probably right about how bad the PD was.

Because of this Bandar log doesn't fall under the net I was trying to cast because they can't simply dump money into PD, and become immune to the majority of the invasion bad luck events. It's probably poor wording on my part. I'm tired, and now I have to go buy TEN POUNDS OF GROUND BEEF.

So in general, for most races in the game, your only choices are O3/M2 or T3/L3. In the same vein, I always start my scales off with Magic 1, and I rarely change that anymore. You'd have to find a good reason to make me waste a tick to get to M2, and I think Drain 2 is terrible unless you have a race that is resistant to it.

Oh, and JimMorrison, I will kill you with an ice pick.

Jazzepi

PS. I think your contention that at 20 provinces you start hitting the 3 events a turn most of the time is incorrect, and makes you a poopyface.

[JimMorrison]

I never knew that you were so horrified by ground cow meat, that you could erupt into such a display of..... eruption!


Anyway, the wording of your quote was really weird, it makes it sound like you are saying "if your PD is good, *otherwise* you can just dump 20 into a province". I think you were trying to say if you get good PD, 20 will save you from almost any indie events. Which is probably true.


This is the quote that I was more trying to address though:

You're missing the point. The decision for me is binary, the reason I'm comparion those two scale choices is because they're the most efficient choices for that slot. Either you take O3/M2 or you take T3/L3. There's absolutely no reason to take something in between, unless you enjoy throwing away points for the anti-synery of Order and Luck, in which case you need to rethink your design because you've reached a point where you're wasting points.

Because taken together, you're basically stating that there are only 2 options worth ever taking at all. Therefore if poor PD makes O3/M2 unattractive, your only other option is T3/L3. So my first argument being that you only have to look at it that harshly if you are married to an awake SC, as they are expensive, so your points on scales must be carefully spent. But beyond that, I'm just saying that if you don't want Misf, you're not killing yourself by going L3, and you're not killing yourself by not going O3, either.


Im not sure that the comparison with M2 is really fair either (I think you are in a bit of a frenzy here, over this ground beef!). M1 gives a measurable and valuable benefit, M2 does not. Meanwhile, M2 does not even give much of any abstract or indirect benefit, whereas all gradations of the Order and Luck scales give you a quantifiable change in variables.

Granted, I would agree that it's unwise to have both Order and Luck scales left at even. One or the other should certainly be boosted at all times (and I'd still agree that usually it should be Order first), but I am pretty sure that if you can afford it, O3 or L3 with the other scale set even, can be a good way to go in some cases. I recently did a game with Caelum with 1T/3L, and it was chugging along great until my Virtue got a disease (that little **** ) which brought the whole machine to its knees.


And I will see your icepick Jazzepi, and raise you a wooden spoon. O.O


Oh and beyond that, I think by 20 provinces, the T3/L3 build should get 3 events almost every single turn. Less maximized builds maybe don't peak until about 30 provinces. But when I take O3/L3 I get plenty of events, and even with O3/L- I seem to get quite a lot of events. Maybe this is something worth plugging into a test game..... Hmmmmm.