Oceania - Let's fix it. Mod discussion

[Zeldor]

I am for improving their land abilities, but it should be combined with 2 things:

- their uber powers uw, there is no debate here, no other nation can challenge them, that's also why there is no big interest in any water nations, so either nerf their uw troops [especially knights] or make other nation troops better [well, mostly Atlantian]

- use mod disabling clams, that's the huge thing for Oceania and forces them to just turtle and make clams...

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by Zeldor

- their uber powers uw, there is no debate here, no other nation can challenge them, that's also why there is no big interest in any water nations, so either nerf their uw troops [especially knights] or make other nation troops better [well, mostly Atlantian]

- use mod disabling clams, that's the huge thing for Oceania and forces them to just turtle and make clams...

Yeah, this mod will also slightly nerf the Knights of the Deep (-1 def, -1 att, +1 enc, perhaps slightly worse equipment). The knights of MA oceania are pretty useless (enc 8!) and ichtysatyrs are OK troops. Disabling clams would be quite a global change and I'd consider it outside the 'jurisdiction' of this mod. I'll recommend it, thought

Originally Posted by Gregstrom

Moko would be rather nice though. Skullface for head armour, maybe?

Sweet idea. I totally want to draw that, too. Could end up being more awesome than a barrel of radioactive monkeys. I'll probably start the graphical works this weekend, I'll make sure to post previwe picks here.

Originally Posted by Gregstrom

I did some random reading, and the idea of a cargo cult popped up. It's maybe not suitable for this mod, but in Dom3 a cargo cult could be really interesting. Native cultists with rituals that conjure up black steel armour and broadswords, all with 'need not eat' because they know the rite that conjures up barrels of salt pork...

That could be a sweet idea for LA Oceania. When the R'lyeh tentacle apocalypse hits underwater, Tritons & Mermen flee to the safety of Dema islands. The Demas are samewhat more civilized in LA (due to influence of Marignon Missionaires) and have the cargo cult. Dema headhunters are now gone, but they can recruit mermen + icthysatyrs and could have something along the lines of LA marignon Navigators, too. And once you get a underwater fort up, you'd be able to recruit "Oceanian Survivors", tritons that mean business and have been armed to the teeth by the cargo cult. No more of that bronze crap.

[chrispedersen]

Oceania is the lands of the triton kings, the storm bringers, the bringers of mist - these are the themes I think of.

On my version of oceania - I gave them versions of hurricane, rain, and mist that was more easily castable by them.

As they were shaped in mist, I gave their second shape glamour.
And I modded a version of friendly currents autocast by their bishop priest

[Foodstamp]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

Oceania is the lands of the triton kings, the storm bringers, the bringers of mist - these are the themes I think of.

On my version of oceania - I gave them versions of hurricane, rain, and mist that was more easily castable by them.

As they were shaped in mist, I gave their second shape glamour.
And I modded a version of friendly currents autocast by their bishop priest

These sound like cool change.

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

On my version of oceania - I gave them versions of hurricane, rain, and mist that was more easily castable by them.

Hmm.. Rain & Mist sound like good ideas. Mist especially is helpful against archers, will help somewhat on land. Mind if I steal this?

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

As they were shaped in mist, I gave their second shape glamour.

Second shape of what units? mermen? I'm a bit confused.

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

And I modded a version of friendly currents autocast by their bishop priest

Not a good idea. At all. Knights of the Deep are pretty ridicilious as they are now, no need to buff Oceania underwater.

3-4 Knights of the Deep + Bishop Fish can obliterate any UW independents, with just a N4 bless to counter poison damage.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Burnsaber

Hmm.. Rain & Mist sound like good ideas. Mist especially is helpful against archers, will help somewhat on land. Mind if I steal this?

Second shape of what units? mermen? I'm a bit confused.

Not a good idea. At all. Knights of the Deep are pretty ridicilious as they are now, no need to buff Oceania underwater.

3-4 Knights of the Deep + Bishop Fish can obliterate any UW independents, with just a N4 bless to counter poison damage.

A: Steal away - give me a credit in the readme. if you send me a pm with your email address I'll send you what I can dig up too.

B. The second shape I was referring to was their land form.
This, by itself, is enough to make oceania powerful on land.

You do need to change the Oceania text description to introduce the theme of water and mists.

C. I *think* I gave bishop fish a land form as well. I know I made them younger (or increased max age).

The Friendly currents spell was on land. Worked great.

D. I also increased the seduction of the Siren - as I think that had been overlooked in the version of CBM. Making a Siren summoning spell might be thematic (national).

E. Finally I was looking at a spell that would increase dominion by 1 candle. Giving them a unique flavor. I almost got it to work. I had a unit with disease and 1 hp, that spread dominion. A little kludgy.

However the problem was it showed up with a commander, and for some reason the commander wouldn't show up diseased.

But I really liked the idea of adding glamour to oceania - makes it seem very 13th warriorish meets the ocean - pictures of viking warriors disappearing into the mist.

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

Burnsaber, have you thought about adding selkies to Atlantis?

I thought about giving them to Oceania. But at least according to the wikipedia entry, they seemed like Siren-esque seducers. I could take matters into my own hands, but I don't know how to draw seals! Or otters for that matters. I'm not an artist, just a editers. I need a good base to work with to manage something usable. (Hence the Tawhuali, Lizards & sharks is easy)

I haven't really taken a look at Atlantis, but they seem intresting enough with their thuggable big mage guys and good magic access+. They have some of that Lovecraft mythology to back them up.

It's the Oceanias combination of thematic "blandness" & gameplay weakness, which makes them so problematic. The exact point when I decided to do something about this was when I tested the EA Oceania for the Faerun game.

I managed to get some land provinces early (with painful amounts of blood, tears and sweat.. from me) and build an early fort to a nice looking mountain province. It was my plan to mass produce Wave Warriors there. Once the fort was finished and I opened the recruitment screen..

I couldn't do anything but whimper in fear.

You only get Turtle infantry & Turtle Chief in Oceania land castles!

It was bizarre. Like something out of freaking twilight zone. I felt like I got *****-slapped by the game. *HOW DARE YOU TRY TO GET TO LAND WITH OCEANIA, BE SMITTEN*.

It also dawned on me that I have to play this thing in MP. I didn't even bother to try to swap nations, I simply knew that I had shortest straw.

I (unsuprisingly) got into a early blitz with R'lyeh. I was secretly hoping to lose so that I would be freed from playing it. But the R'lyeh player staled thrice, giving me a *major* advantage. I was also looking forward to writing some thematic AAR's, but my mind is drawing blanks with Oceania, I simply cannot crasp the damned thing.

Eh.. looks I derailed a bit there. Sorry folks. But about atlantis, I think that it doesn't need any more stuff. If it is weak, you can just manage the unit prices & stats.

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

But I really liked the idea of adding glamour to oceania - makes it seem very 13th warriorish meets the ocean - pictures of viking warriors disappearing into the mist.

I'd like to read the descriptions you've made. Could you please send the stuff to Burnsaber(at)hotmail.com

Your changes seem intresting, but do not do anything with the 'land castle' problem. In my opinion, this is the most crippling thing about Oceania. There's no reason to even bother with forts, your stuck to indy-level troops anyway.

But the mist theme is nice. I'll probably give them a national spell that gives both mist & rain (saves spell slots, you see). It'll be W2A1 likely.

I think that with addition of Dema alliance and intoduction of mist themes, we could manage to make Oceania playable.

[Calchet]

I've played around with boosting Oceania as well, though in a rather different direction - I collected a set of sea-related ground-recruitables from the mythology of northern Europe and the British isles, but have yet to get around to implementing them or making graphics:

Units:
- Kelpies, a poor amphibian (freshwater-dependent) horse-creature with a bit of stealth, a little awe and a once/battle, MR resists easily, melee-range charm attack.
- Finmen, strange merfolk-derivate poor amphibians that stalk the lands, again somewhat stealthy, wielding simple weapons.
- (Perhaps) Finmen riding kelpies (Oh, the originality!)

Commanders:
- Finman Sorcerers, capable finmen casters that complement your magic path selection with a little bit of water, air, astral and/or death.
- Each Uisge (or Nix), male multi-shape sneakers, poor amphibians, with a beautiful male playing a standard-effect fiddle in battle, a horrid fear-inspiring man-horse creature hybrid form, and an awe-inspiring kelpie-like horse form.

Summon:
- Nuckelavee. Something/death, vampire-like inability to enter water provinces. Looks something like a flayed centaur. Fear that makes a Prince of Death look like a cuddly bunny, and the combat ability to back it up, more or less.

As I'm unlikely to ever get around to working on these, feel free to adopt any that tickle your fancy.