Fog of war

[Cross]

Originally Posted by hawk66

I do not know if this was already discussed:

I'd like to see the 'Fog of war' enhanced in that way that (enemy) units are not completely known when you detect them for the first time. What I mean is that you only see the basic type (tank, infantry and so on ) but not the specific type (depending of the distance and visibility, of course).

Later, when you have more intelligence about the unit the complete info would be available.

What do you think?

Currently you can right click on an enemy unit to get 'unit info.'

I wonder if there may be a way to code a realism 'Preferences' button to turn on/off access to the 'unit info' screen? Basically disabling the current right click on enemy units.

First, this will still allow you to briefly identify some units as they are named when firing. But will definately create an 'enhanced' FoW environment. And the 'purists' can still manually rename units if that's agreed upon.

Secondly, you will still be able to roughly identify units by their icons, which are largely generic. All you will know is that they are infantry, or it's probably a panzer IV but you may not know which type.

Thirdly, you will no longer be able to see how many crew are left in damaged enemy tanks.



cheers,
Cross

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Cross

Currently you can right click on an enemy unit to get 'unit info.'

I wonder if there may be a way to code a realism 'Preferences' button to turn on/off access to the 'unit info' screen? Basically disabling the current right click on enemy units.

First, this will still allow you to briefly identify some units as they are named when firing. But will definately create an 'enhanced' FoW environment. And the 'purists' can still manually rename units if that's agreed upon.

Secondly, you will still be able to roughly identify units by their icons, which are largely generic. All you will know is that they are infantry, or it's probably a panzer IV but you may not know which type.

Thirdly, you will no longer be able to see how many crew are left in damaged enemy tanks.

One thing I failed to mention, is that you would still be able to identify an enemy unit if you have LOS to it during your move turn. As you can 'target' that unit to see it's name. Which may be a realistic feature anyway.

However, this still enhances FoW because you will not be able to ID units that you can see on the map that you have no LOS to during your turn (including units spotted by fixed wing aircraft), and you still won't be able to see 'unit info' with weapon and crew details on the unit.



cheers,
Cross

[whdonnelly]

I have no problem with right clicking on a unit and getting info. If you can see it, you have a pretty good idea whether it is a BMP or tank, scouts or FIST teams. Maybe you don't know militia from regular, but that is a small price to pay for the rest of the realism vs game compromise.

[Imp]

Must admit I like being able to access the enemy info screen simply because it saves you looking up enyclopedia all the time. If you stick to the same sides suppose not a problem but there are a lot of units & any army worth its salt would have an idea of the enemies capabilities.

Going back to the original post as bothered to look at my message tickers.
Simple solution stick a post it over the bottom one & you only know the weapon that fired. I definetly dont watch it much as do go what the hell was that on a replay sometimes. Slightly diffrent mines hate the things mainly because at least on my system they are a tad noisy

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Imp

Must admit I like being able to access the enemy info screen simply because it saves you looking up enyclopedia all the time. If you stick to the same sides suppose not a problem but there are a lot of units & any army worth its salt would have an idea of the enemies capabilities.

Hi Imp,

I agree that you should "have an idea of the enemies capabilities" but currently we have EVERY detail of the enemies capabilities. And that is what I'm trying to address.

One of the most unrealistic 'cheats' this allows, is that our armour instantly knows if an enemy squad is carrying any AT weapons, and exactly which weapons those are!!!

The main info you gain from right clicking is:

Detail of weapon and ammo types
Number of men
Range of weapons (after hitting 'I' for additional info)

Realistically, if your forces are are facing an infantry squad, you would not know what weapons that squad was carrying until they fired the weapon.

With the 'unit info' disabled you will still discover what weapons the squad has, but only when they fire.

In real life, the number of men in a squad you are facing is always obscured in battle. We have instant access to the exact number left in any spotted squad. Disabled unit info will keep us from exact details but we'll still realistically have an idea from the icons.

As for having to use the encyclopedia, I agree that could be a pain. But please remember I am suggesting an optional realism button, not a complete game change. This button would be an advanced feature (not for beginners) that you would use when you are fighting reasonably familiar forces.


cheers,
Cross

[Imp]

I must admit justified points, I always thought including men on first screen a bit strange as you tend to notice it. Useful for gun crews & if you were going to be gamey could use to know teams have limited shots.
Its main use for me is looking up vehicle & to a lesser extent gun capabilities you can after all get a good idea of the shape infantry is in from the icon.

As you say maybe an optional thing but has its drawbacks example with infantry.

When I buy my force if dont know other sides capabilities I select them as allies & have a quick look at possible capabilities then buy my force..
With infantry thats AT & ranges of weapons mainly plus if they have a diffrent support squad.
In game have no need to look up infantry just assume the worst esp with AT weapons as most players buy the good ones mainly
So vs the AI (regular turns) no need to look as can remember the support squad as he say fired 2 LMGs so has no AT.
In PBEM if a few days pass then I have forgotten which one he was so might look it up if tactical situation calls for it.
Could I suppose write it down but the game is geared to PBEM with a gap between playing to save you having to do this. Unit leaves your LOS but does not instantly disapear like it would to allow you to comeback & "remember"
This could probably be changed so he vanishes & now some players would resort to pen & paper keeping track of where units went.
Just my view but this would detract from the game though human nature means someone will be bothered to do it.
Having said that though cant see it happening but I would be happy if vehicle info gave detail & troops just said infantry but it occurs to me some players would just get silly.
Look at all troop configurations write them down now watch them fire closely & you can tell what squad type it is or narrow it to a couple max.
In reality this is what you do anyway but to a far smaller extent, hes been firing GL at my squad so has one of 2 RPGs we will err on the side of safety & assume the longer ranged varient, at some time in the game we will probably have to risk it & find out.

The other thing is where do you stop if you really want to open the flood gates for the pen & paper brigade & have fog of war.
Dont show enemy suppressed status is it pinned or in good order, did it rally?
Redo tiles & icons so units become very hard to see in woods smoke (TI hum) even when spotted, then remove P&N buttons for targeting & ID tags etc.

Sorry a bit long winded & thinking about it when I stumble into squads armed with them flame rockets do wish I had looked first.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Imp

The other thing is where do you stop if you really want to open the flood gates for the pen & paper brigade & have fog of war.
Dont show enemy suppressed status is it pinned or in good order, did it rally?
Redo tiles & icons so units become very hard to see in woods smoke (TI hum) even when spotted, then remove P&N buttons for targeting & ID tags etc.

Sorry a bit long winded & thinking about it when I stumble into squads armed with them flame rockets do wish I had looked first.

Hi Imp,

Could FoW cause players to resort to pen & paper notes? I think it's possible but unlikely. There's already a 'danger' that you may be playing against a detail oriented (anal) opponent who is writing down every AVF he damages and keeping track of every unit spotted or KO, in an attempt to get complete intel on your force make up, disposition and condition.

As for opening the flood gates to other FoW issues like obscure icons or pinned status, those are separate issues that someone could propose for discussion on their own merit; but they really don't have much to do with a disable unit info button.
The game has become brilliant, because of careful and intelligent incremental improvements over many years.

However, I think their could possibly be something in your concerns but I honestly won't know how this FoW suggestion would play until I'd tested it. I think I'll try it by disciplining myself not to use the unit info screen in my next battle, and I'll see how it plays.

cheers,
Cross