Fog of war

[Imp]

Must admit I like being able to access the enemy info screen simply because it saves you looking up enyclopedia all the time. If you stick to the same sides suppose not a problem but there are a lot of units & any army worth its salt would have an idea of the enemies capabilities.

Going back to the original post as bothered to look at my message tickers.
Simple solution stick a post it over the bottom one & you only know the weapon that fired. I definetly dont watch it much as do go what the hell was that on a replay sometimes. Slightly diffrent mines hate the things mainly because at least on my system they are a tad noisy

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Imp

Must admit I like being able to access the enemy info screen simply because it saves you looking up enyclopedia all the time. If you stick to the same sides suppose not a problem but there are a lot of units & any army worth its salt would have an idea of the enemies capabilities.

Hi Imp,

I agree that you should "have an idea of the enemies capabilities" but currently we have EVERY detail of the enemies capabilities. And that is what I'm trying to address.

One of the most unrealistic 'cheats' this allows, is that our armour instantly knows if an enemy squad is carrying any AT weapons, and exactly which weapons those are!!!

The main info you gain from right clicking is:

Detail of weapon and ammo types
Number of men
Range of weapons (after hitting 'I' for additional info)

Realistically, if your forces are are facing an infantry squad, you would not know what weapons that squad was carrying until they fired the weapon.

With the 'unit info' disabled you will still discover what weapons the squad has, but only when they fire.

In real life, the number of men in a squad you are facing is always obscured in battle. We have instant access to the exact number left in any spotted squad. Disabled unit info will keep us from exact details but we'll still realistically have an idea from the icons.

As for having to use the encyclopedia, I agree that could be a pain. But please remember I am suggesting an optional realism button, not a complete game change. This button would be an advanced feature (not for beginners) that you would use when you are fighting reasonably familiar forces.


cheers,
Cross

[Imp]

I must admit justified points, I always thought including men on first screen a bit strange as you tend to notice it. Useful for gun crews & if you were going to be gamey could use to know teams have limited shots.
Its main use for me is looking up vehicle & to a lesser extent gun capabilities you can after all get a good idea of the shape infantry is in from the icon.

As you say maybe an optional thing but has its drawbacks example with infantry.

When I buy my force if dont know other sides capabilities I select them as allies & have a quick look at possible capabilities then buy my force..
With infantry thats AT & ranges of weapons mainly plus if they have a diffrent support squad.
In game have no need to look up infantry just assume the worst esp with AT weapons as most players buy the good ones mainly
So vs the AI (regular turns) no need to look as can remember the support squad as he say fired 2 LMGs so has no AT.
In PBEM if a few days pass then I have forgotten which one he was so might look it up if tactical situation calls for it.
Could I suppose write it down but the game is geared to PBEM with a gap between playing to save you having to do this. Unit leaves your LOS but does not instantly disapear like it would to allow you to comeback & "remember"
This could probably be changed so he vanishes & now some players would resort to pen & paper keeping track of where units went.
Just my view but this would detract from the game though human nature means someone will be bothered to do it.
Having said that though cant see it happening but I would be happy if vehicle info gave detail & troops just said infantry but it occurs to me some players would just get silly.
Look at all troop configurations write them down now watch them fire closely & you can tell what squad type it is or narrow it to a couple max.
In reality this is what you do anyway but to a far smaller extent, hes been firing GL at my squad so has one of 2 RPGs we will err on the side of safety & assume the longer ranged varient, at some time in the game we will probably have to risk it & find out.

The other thing is where do you stop if you really want to open the flood gates for the pen & paper brigade & have fog of war.
Dont show enemy suppressed status is it pinned or in good order, did it rally?
Redo tiles & icons so units become very hard to see in woods smoke (TI hum) even when spotted, then remove P&N buttons for targeting & ID tags etc.

Sorry a bit long winded & thinking about it when I stumble into squads armed with them flame rockets do wish I had looked first.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Imp

The other thing is where do you stop if you really want to open the flood gates for the pen & paper brigade & have fog of war.
Dont show enemy suppressed status is it pinned or in good order, did it rally?
Redo tiles & icons so units become very hard to see in woods smoke (TI hum) even when spotted, then remove P&N buttons for targeting & ID tags etc.

Sorry a bit long winded & thinking about it when I stumble into squads armed with them flame rockets do wish I had looked first.

Hi Imp,

Could FoW cause players to resort to pen & paper notes? I think it's possible but unlikely. There's already a 'danger' that you may be playing against a detail oriented (anal) opponent who is writing down every AVF he damages and keeping track of every unit spotted or KO, in an attempt to get complete intel on your force make up, disposition and condition.

As for opening the flood gates to other FoW issues like obscure icons or pinned status, those are separate issues that someone could propose for discussion on their own merit; but they really don't have much to do with a disable unit info button.
The game has become brilliant, because of careful and intelligent incremental improvements over many years.

However, I think their could possibly be something in your concerns but I honestly won't know how this FoW suggestion would play until I'd tested it. I think I'll try it by disciplining myself not to use the unit info screen in my next battle, and I'll see how it plays.

cheers,
Cross

[Imp]

Cross
yes was taking to extremes & more than a bit anal but someone would be.
Agree in pricipal as an option turning info so its blank for infantry makes sense & vehicle guns should not list crews on first screen.
This will have a slight impact on gameplay if it was ever actioned I suppose, as do often look at other side first so know the sort of range they might be dangerous to armour its never realy occured to me.
If its a big game quite often set the range to engage infantry in the op filter I use for tanks & save it so in the instances I want it its already set.
As you say the temptation is there if one squad in the platoon has a longer ranged AT weapon to look.
It does mean I would need to pay more attention to replays as at the moment thats when I use it, see a squad fire something nasty I remember its one of by that terrain feature & look which rather than remembering its specific hex. Sieve like brain like mine might have to watch replay twice if things got a bit exiting.

[Marek_Tucan]

Just my .02 CZK...
1) Fog of War - I like it. I would like "FoW" unit names - as for ID, it'snot that easy as many people make it to be. Not all vehicles are so cut and dried as Abrams (and even then, distinguishing M1 from M1A1 from M1A2SEP at 3 km is a bit hard I would say), the same for various BMPs. Enter the domain of T-64-72-80-84-90 family and you're lost. I guess in the heat of battle no crew would stop to count the roadwheels and measure their diameters. Let alone getting info on ammo used and so on.
However I think not everyone would like it, so it is clearly a question for individual OOB mods. Come one, if someone wants to do this, I'm game, rename units and show correct names in encyclopaedia texts. So, say, no more T-55, T-55A, T-55AM1, T-55AM2, T-55AM2B, T-55MV, but just "T-55", "T-55 ERA", "T-55 BDD". Same for infantry - no more "FO", "Scouts", "Mech section", "Militia section", just say "Infantry", "Light Infantry", "RPG Infantry", "Machinegun"... However I won't like say renaming PzII to Tiger or vice versa. Though it is true that for many Allied soldiers every German tank was "Tiger", "Panther" and every SPG "Ferdinand"
As for editing ency texts, I have found out how to make it en masse and posted it in the TOE section some time ago.
One of the "benefits" of FoW is

2) "forbiddning use" - why? Why not just have a gentleman's agreement about say "no right-clicking", "no unit info screen"... I personally do not use right-click at the enemy too often, I like fighting partially blind

[Cross]

Yes, the crew number can be a bit gamey. I have often right clicked on enemy tanks to get an indication of how badly it's damaged. I also want to know if it's the same tank I damaged earlier, and then I can better decide if I want to approach it.

That said, it can be realistic to know if a specific tank is damaged. I've read quite a few accounts of tank battles where hit tanks has visible signs of damage, like trailing smoke.

You may be right about the replay becoming more important. That may even be the wrinkle that torpedoes this idea. If it makes the game frustrating, regardless of realism, then who'd want to use it...

But it may just make the game better, like not knowing where unspotted units are. What you don't know can enhance the game, rather than making it frustrating.

It just has to be tested to see how it plays and 'feels'.

[Marek_Tucan]

Originally Posted by Cross

That said, it can be realistic to know if a specific tank is damaged. I've read quite a few accounts of tank battles where hit tanks has visible signs of damage, like trailing smoke.

OTOH I daresay I have read a number of accounts where the tank showed no visible signs of damage yet the crew was killed or knocked out. And the basic rule of ground combat is "shoot till it changes shape and stops moving". Just have a look at the famous Cajone Eh. Burned after a freak SPG-82 hit, then subsequently burned some more by crew, then attacked by Paveways and directly hit by a Maverick... Yet from 3-km it would still look to you like one Abrams keeping guard over the road crossing.
EDIT: And to counter "Yeah, from 3 km maybe, but if I get scouts close..." - would you try to close in to few hundred (max) meters to Abrams? And anyway, you would at the very least stop till the scouts make sure the tank is dead.


Same situation, a tank is reported. You take a look through binocs and if you're lucky, you identify the typical egg-shaped turret. Now what is it? T-54? T-55? Type 59? Type 69? With night sights? With modern ammo? With LRF? Damaged by previous airstrike, suppressed by arty, with green crew not seeing you, with experienced crew playing dead, with experienced crew having a brewski time?