Mod: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6

[Zeldor]

Did you fix/add stuff you forgot in beta version? As it's surely not in the readme.

[BigDaddy]

Why CBM?

Is it to make dom3 a more relaxing casual game?

I ask because it seems like, if someone knows a nation intimately, that then they can use it, and the game is probably fair (it is 23b afterall) without the CBM.

I guess what I'm asking is why and when do you like to use the CBM?

Like this, let's say I like to clam hoard with Atlantis, because it can be hard climb up on land and make war after I take out another underwater nation. So, with the CBM I can no longer clam hoarde, and the other players are no longer concerned bout Atlantis hoarding clams and suddenly emerging to beat them into a pulp...

I say clam hoarding as a time bomb for underwater nations... you have to find a way to go down there and get him...

I remember in dom2 without the CBM clam hoarding was violently fast... They have slowed it tons in the stock version since then. I think that they have thought carefully about how fast clams pay off. Does it make sense to make clams unique in all cases?

[rdonj]

Vanilla is not really that well balanced, really. There are a number of nations that are just plain stronger than most others. They are still beatable, but there are just far fewer chinks in their armor than most nations. CBM doesn't really try to address this that much, though it does make some of the grossly overpowered nations a bit more reasonable. Mostly what CBM does though is make more strategies viable, and try to work around bad mechanics (see: clam nerf). I prefer playing CBM because it improves a lot of spells and pretenders that are pretty useless in vanilla, and makes them actually usable and fun.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by BigDaddy

Like this, let's say I like to clam hoard with Atlantis, because it can be hard climb up on land and make war after I take out another underwater nation. So, with the CBM I can no longer clam hoarde, and the other players are no longer concerned bout Atlantis hoarding clams and suddenly emerging to beat them into a pulp...

I say clam hoarding as a time bomb for underwater nations... you have to find a way to go down there and get him...

I remember in dom2 without the CBM clam hoarding was violently fast... They have slowed it tons in the stock version since then. I think that they have thought carefully about how fast clams pay off. Does it make sense to make clams unique in all cases?

This is bad game design because you're basically saying a UW nation basically should stop playing the game for awhile (30 turns? 50?) unless someone else can be bothered to come and fight them underwater. In the meantime, they should be able to build up an insurmountable advantage by just sitting back and clamming?

Winning the game should involve playing the game. Not just seeing how much you can abuse the forging system. And attacking UW is really hard in Vanilla - I'd say it would be next to impossible for a land nation to take out an UW nation before late game. Further, there's the social problem of everybody knowing you're sitting there clamming, but no one is willing to attack you because it weakens them, so you just don't get attacked. (Of course, everyone is clamming, and water income is actually less common underwater, so you probably lose the clamming race anyway. This is a pretty degenerate metric for winning/losing the game).

The lack of interactivity between land and water nations is a serious problem in vanilla. CBM in 1.6 took large strides towards fixing this by making access UW easier, and the ability of aquatic-only commanders to leave the seas easier (cheaper water-breathing and air-breathing items). And this is a good thing. Attacking underwater is still too hard, even with these changes, but at least it can happen earlier and requires fewer resources.

Besides, not fighting a war is still plenty beneficial at present (don't need to divert valuable mage resources to combat, or use as much cash on armies so you can spend it on mages or infrastructure). But clams just turned it into an 'I win' button if you could successfully turtle and forge tons of clams. As a strategy that simply had to go.

[Stavis_L]

Originally Posted by BigDaddy

Why CBM?

Ok - a lot of people are going to respond with MP balance related responses, which is valid, and nice and all, but only one reason to use it. A perhaps more pragmatic reason is that a large number of MP games are started using it, so familiarity is helpful if you intend to join a lot of MP games.

For me, however, the big attraction of CBM is that it lets you do things that you otherwise wouldn't do due to opportunity cost. For instance - Dragon Master. This always sounded cool in vanilla, but was always too expensive to justify. In CBM, it's cheaper, so it actually sees some use. As another example, see the use of wholesale transformation in e.g. Baalz' Oceana guide (or his latest Pangea guide.) You can justifiably recruit or summon many more national units than before. You can use some of the "cool sounding" pretenders and not feel like you're taking a huge handicap for doing so. You can cast nifty spells that were previously "inferior" and never saw play.

It diversifies the game and expands the palette of economical strategies (somewhat.) It's not a panacea, but it does help.

[Kuritza]

Sigh. Bye, CM, hello again, vanilla.

[Trumanator]

Originally Posted by Kuritza

Sigh. Bye, CM, hello again, vanilla.

Thats too bad, but if you still want to use it in SP you could always take out the gemgen part. Though MP might be more difficult, you can still start a game with your rules!

[Jazzepi]

I'm still a bit wary of the clams being made unique items. I'd rather just see them made more expensive so that the return on investment is slower.

Otherwise a good update.

Could you provide a version were the clams aren't completely removed from the game and just nerfed instead?

Jazzepi

[chrispedersen]

changing the clams itself is trivial jazz.. but it begs a lot of other questions.

Bloodstones were nerfed - do you want them fixed too?
Naiad warriors were made dirt cheap as compensation... include the compensation or no....

[Kuritza]

Heck, I dont even know.
Vanilla - back to useless Titans and overpriced rainbows. CBM - 'bang them hard with lotsa troops' as the only endgame strategy; nations with weak troops start weak and end up even weaker. Grim choice. I really hope this change will be undone in future updates, as boosters price hike before.