M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns

[Cross]

If I could recommend two small changes to the British OOB:

1. Change the name of the Tank Destroyer M10 (unit 187) to ‘Wolverine’ or ‘Wolverine M10’ or ‘3in SP Wolverine’.

2. The Achilles (units 44,155, 223) supposedly had additional armour added, during the conversion from M10 (3in gun) to Achilles with 17Pdr.

US names
M10 3in GMC (Gun Motor Carriage) I/II, was the USA designation for this ‘Tank Destroyer’ with M7 gun.

British names
‘Wolverine’, was the British name for the above unconverted M10’s in British service, but Achilles I/II was the official British name for unconverted M10’s, aka. 3in SP Wolverine.

Achilles Ic/IIc, was the British name for M10’s converted to 17Pdr gun. aka. 17Pdr SP Achilles.

Armour

The only other change carried out on the Achilles was the addition of 17 mm thick armour plates welded to the front and sides of the M10 to increase armour protection, as well as a 20 mm thick shield fitted to the top of the turret to provide protection from overhead threats that resulted from the M10 having an open top turret.

Source:
http://anonymous-generaltopics.blogs...abel/Wolverine

Apparantly, 1,100 of the 1,648 M10's, that Britian got from the US, were eventually converted to 17Pdr Achilles.

The above quote makes it sound like the additional armour was part of the standard conversion process. But I've not seen this before, so I guess it's possible that not all 1,100 were up-armoured; perhaps only some. Anyone know?







Cross

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[Cross]

This one looks like it has additional turret armour:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/damopabe/3322864425/




.

[sturmovik]

Would the basic M10 Wolverine be deserving of a bunp in Fire Control from 3 to 4? The Achilles has a 5, but compared with the regular M10 it has the same crew layout and open top for enhanced spotting.

[Cross]

I’ve looked at a few more photos of the Achilles, and I don’t see a clear case for a covered turret.

You can identify the Achilles 17Pdr, from other tank destroyers/self-propelled guns, by the large muzzle brake and the counter-weight just behind it.

The two photos in the OP could have been a field mod. The additional armour looks the same in both photos, but perhaps it’s photos of the same vehicle, or an Achilles field modded by the same workshop.

I did find another site/source that talks about the extra 17mm and 20mm plates, but they suggest the 20mm was just added to the front of the turret top, not covering the whole turret.

Here:

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.p...anks&Itemid=57



/Cross

[DRG]

The fire control increase for the M10's had already been addressed and I will put the rest of this on the list to investigate

Don

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Cross

I did find another site/source that talks about the extra 17mm and 20mm plates, but they suggest the 20mm was just added to the front of the turret top, not covering the whole turret.

Here:

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.p...anks&Itemid=57



/Cross

Note that under Achilles in their data list there is nothing entered for top armour. I think all they did was weld a bullet shield to the top of the turret to help protect the crew. It's not an "additional" 20 mm, it's just 20mm of steel where none existed before

Don

[Cross]

Originally Posted by DRG

Note that under Achilles in their data list there is nothing entered for top armour. I think all they did was weld a bullet shield to the top of the turret to help protect the crew. It's not an "additional" 20 mm, it's just 20mm of steel where none existed before

Don

I think you are right.


/Cross

[cbo]

Originally Posted by Cross

1. Change the name of the Tank Destroyer M10 (unit 187) to ‘Wolverine’ or ‘Wolverine M10’ or ‘3in SP Wolverine’.

Please don't These names were something created in the British Department of Tank Design as part of a general naming scheme for British and US tracked vehicles. They never caught on outside the department and you wont find any contemporary sources using them. In fact, even manuals for these vehicles do not use these names.

If you want to use the proper British names for these vehicles, they were simply

SP, 3-inch, M10
SP, 17-pr, M10

Even your internet reference alludes to this fact: "The name "Achilles" was however not a wartime designation; at the time the vehicle was called 17pdr M10, or 17pdr SP M10, or even occasionally, "Firefly"."

2. The Achilles (units 44,155, 223) supposedly had additional armour added, during the conversion from M10 (3in gun) to Achilles with 17Pdr.

Not as a rule. I'm aware of one or two pictures of 17-pr M10s with add on armour, but the bulk were just plain old US M10s with a different gun.
Incidentally the original US vehicle was prepared for bolt-on armour from production, hence all the bolts on the front (all) and side (only early production vehicles). It appears to have been used very rarely.

British names
‘Wolverine’, was the British name for the above unconverted M10’s in British service, but Achilles I/II was the official British name for unconverted M10’s, aka. 3in SP Wolverine.

Achilles Ic/IIc, was the British name for M10’s converted to 17Pdr gun. aka. 17Pdr SP Achilles.

See above - say Achilles and Wolverine to a WWII vet of any sort and he wouldn't know what you were talking about.

Armour

The only other change carried out on the Achilles was the addition of 17 mm thick armour plates welded to the front and sides of the M10 to increase armour protection, as well as a 20 mm thick shield fitted to the top of the turret to provide protection from overhead threats that resulted from the M10 having an open top turret.

The turret top protection in the two pictures was a US invention, apparently improvised locally in Europe in 1945. Again a feature very rarely seen on US M10s and to my knowledge never on British M10s.

The British M10s did occasionally come with a so-called blast roof, which covered only the front part of the turret and again, it appears to be something developed in the winter of 1944/45 and rarely seen on M10s.

The roof you see most often in pictures of M10s are on M10s converted to M36 of which the very late production vehicles recieved an armoured roof. The roof appears to have been retrofitted to other M36 in post-war use in Korea and with the French and Pakistani army. I do not recall if the Yugoslavian Army M36 had roofs?
In any case, it is feature that probably did not make it to the front in WWII.

cbo

[DRG]

Originally Posted by cbo

Please don't These names were something created in the British Department of Tank Design as part of a general naming scheme for British and US tracked vehicles. They never caught on outside the department and you wont find any contemporary sources using them. In fact, even manuals for these vehicles do not use these names.

If you want to use the proper British names for these vehicles, they were simply

SP, 3-inch, M10
SP, 17-pr, M10


cbo

In the spirt of .." if I make one guy happy I make one guy unhappy " I have renamed it M10 Wolverine. The Achilles stays Achilles. If I started using the "official" designations I'd end up with things like "Truck,3-Ton,GS"



Don

[Cross]

Hi CBO,

Names

I respect your purist, and historical approach. No, really I do.

But I don’t think what the troops of the day did or didn’t call equipment should be the criteria with which things are named in the game; but I do agree that this should be taken into account.

In my opinion, the game should use names that are universally accepted and recognized by the players. ‘M10 Wolverine’ is far more recognizable (in the 21st Century) than ‘M10’. The OOB can be confusing enough for new players; let’s make it a little easier for them.

The Wolverine name is widespread and universal. Today, even the Americans have adopted the name, often referring to their own M10’s as ‘Wolverine’ in books and on websites. I guess similar to how many US (non-purists) call their M4 ‘Sherman’.

Don't worry, I'm not suggesting changing the US OOB to use 'Sherman'.

BTW, most sources I have seen do include ‘Wolverine’ and ‘Achilles’ in the ‘Official’ WW2 designation for the British M10.

Ps. Are you also suggesting (to be consistent) we should not use the name ‘Achilles’ in the British OOB?

Armour

Thank you for the additional info on the armour. You have confirmed my suspicions about the photos and local field fits.

I had heard about the M10 being originally prepared for additional bolt-on armor. I wasn’t sure if this is what the Brits took advantage of during the 17Pdr upgrade. But the source about the additional armour specifically said ‘welded”. I guess history is a mystery…


cheers,
Cross