PaK 97/38

[cbo]

Originally Posted by DRG

Just corroborating the notion that the PaK 97/38 was a pretty common weapon in the German Army - not suggesting what you should do with it in the game......

In mid 1942 why would a player buy a Pak 97/38 when he can buy a Pak 40 unless he was

a/ a masochist
b/ a detail freak
c/ on a tight points "budget"
d/ all of the above

?

Since you ask. You sort of answered it yourself further down - to play a historical scenario/game where this gun was used.

Also, we allow this weapon into the game 11/41. You and I both know Claus that there will ALWAYS be a source that disagrees with some other source and you also know we do our best to sort that out or, when doubt exists, compromise.

Sure - but what exactly have I done to fuel this particular statement of well know facts?

I'm not telling you how to design your game, what units you should put in it, or how you should modify data. I'm hardly playing it these days. I'd just thought I'd throw in bit of historical data on the subject as that is my primary interest here - the history, not the game.

cbo

[DRG]

Originally Posted by cbo

Sure - but what exactly have I done to fuel this particular statement of well know facts?

I'm not telling you how to design your game, what units you should put in it, or how you should modify data. I'm hardly playing it these days. I'd just thought I'd throw in bit of historical data on the subject as that is my primary interest here - the history, not the game.

cbo

Just stating the obvious for everyone's benefit Claus. Sort of a "devils advocate" These are not "well know facts" for everyone and not everyone understands that sometimes we have to bend reality to fit the game



Don

[sturmovik]

OK, let me put it another way keeping in mind this is a game

In mid 1942 why would a player buy a Pak 97/38 when he can buy a Pak 40 unless he was

a/ a masochist
b/ a detail freak
c/ on a tight points "budget"
d/ all of the above

I don't know about you, but some people DO play the game for the scenarios and enjoy seeing how to fight and win real historic battles. The encyclopedia is also a pretty handy reference. I know we live in the age of Wikiepdia, but the SP OB files are one of the better databases that are synthesized from multiple sources.

Even if in the sort of "free choice" unit buying system the game uses favors the high quality weapons, just having the potpourri of captured foreign units in the OB's taught me just how hard up German was for equipment due to its poor mobilization efforts prior to 1943.

Anyway, at least for my own information is there a consensus on the distribution of HEAT ammunition for the Pak 97/38 in various Axis armies?

[redcoat2]

The Polish book Wydawnictwo Militaria 258: Panzerabwehr Artillerie (publ. 2006) features a table that shows ammunition production for German anti-tank guns during WW2 – including the Pak 97/38:



The ‘HL’ refers to HEAT. ‘SpGr’ is HE. I think the ‘PzGr 40’ is AP.¹ Using these definitions the total production of ammunition for the Pak 97/38 was 2,812,700 HE, 2,581,900 HEAT and 1,394,100 AP. The HEAT figures match those quoted by cbo.

I doubt whether the Germans palmed off all of their AP rounds to their allies. The captured technical data sheet I posted earlier shows that they were using them in the Summer of 1944.

¹ The Polish book describes the Pak 97/38 ‘PzGr’ round as ‘przeciwpancerne’ – which I think roughly translates as ‘anti-tank’.

[cbo]

Originally Posted by redcoat2

The Polish book Wydawnictwo Militaria 258: Panzerabwehr Artillerie (publ. 2006) features a table that shows ammunition production for German anti-tank guns during WW2 – including the Pak 97/38:



The ‘HL’ refers to HEAT. ‘SpGr’ is HE. I think the ‘PzGr 40’ is AP.¹.

PzGr 40 usually means a subcaliber HVAP-type round, which sounds rather odd for this weapon - nor have I ever read anything about subcaliber ammunition being used with this gun.
There was a PzGr 40 W (Weicheisen) round, which was a full caliber AP round made of soft steel and had quite low penetration but did a lot of damage due to spalling and plugging. May have made a bit more sense for this gun, but I have never seen any refences to that either.

Also, the fact that some 400.000 were made in 1944, when few, if any PzGr 40 were made due to tungsten shortages also suggest that there is something fishy with those figures.

I doubt whether the Germans palmed off all of their AP rounds to their allies. The captured technical data sheet I posted earlier shows that they were using them in the Summer of 1944.

I wouldn't put too much faith in those "technical sheets" - they were put together by the German ministry of armaments in an attempt at making a complete catalogue of German weaponry in 1944 and it also lists obsolete stuff and ammunition and weapons that were only available in small numbers.
These sheets also contain their share of errors.

I got the complete catalogue as published by the German Waffen-Journal many years ago.

cbo

[redcoat2]

Hi cbo, Patronenmeister,

it also struck me as very odd that the AP round is listed as a ‘PzGr 40’ APCR. I suppose it could be an inaccurate designation for an AP round (such as the 7.5 cm K.Gr. Pz. (p)) produced using a Polish design and/or components. On the other hand, maybe no AP rounds were produced at all. It is interesting that the table provides figures regarding HEAT round production which match those you found elsewhere. Perhaps all the figures are questionable. Or maybe the Polish authors of the recently published book came across some info we haven't seen elsewhere.

The technical sheets are interesting historical documents. One of my books seems to have been largely based upon them. The Pak 97/38 sheet has some useful information. The penetration stats, for example, are the same as you have quoted elsewhere. It’s a shame that the sheet for the Pak 97/38 isn’t as complete as many of the others.

redcoat2

[cbo]

Originally Posted by redcoat2

Hi cbo, Patronenmeister,

it also struck me as very odd that the AP round is listed as a ‘PzGr 40’ APCR. I suppose it could be an inaccurate designation for an AP round (such as the 7.5 cm K.Gr. Pz. (p)) produced using a Polish design and/or components. On the other hand, maybe no AP rounds were produced at all. It is interesting that the table provides figures regarding HEAT round production which match those you found elsewhere. Perhaps all the figures are questionable. Or maybe the Polish authors of the recently published book came across some info we haven't seen elsewhere.

It turns out that it is likely that the author of the Polish book used exactly the same source as I did - Hahns "Waffen und Geheimwaffen....". He just read the table on page 115 wrong

As he read the ammunition production figures, he went from the 7,5cm PaK 97/38 for which only HL rounds are listed and down to the next line which lists SpGr (HE) and the next line which lists PzGr. (AP), missing the fact that the two last figures are not for the PaK 97/38 but for a 7,62cm gun - probably the PaK 36(r).
Why he added the "40" is anybodys guess....

Hahn does not list his sources precisely, but others have had fingers on the same tables in the German Archives and Hahns numbers appear to add up compared with the original paperwork.

The technical sheets are interesting historical documents. One of my books seems to have been largely based upon them. The Pak 97/38 sheet has some useful information. The penetration stats, for example, are the same as you have quoted elsewhere. It’s a shame that the sheet for the Pak 97/38 isn’t as complete as many of the others.

They are interesting, and contains some information that is not easy to come by in other sources (prices on equipment, barrel wear, consumption of rawmaterials etc.). But they should not be mistaken for technical documents as manuals, design drawings or Waffenamt correspondance regarding the technical properties of various weapons.
Their purpose was not as technical documentation, but rather as a catalogue of weapons that the bureaucrats working for RfRuK could use in their work.
As you point out, many of the entries are incomplete, just as there are plain errors and data that does not quite line up with other sources.

When they were published back in 1976 by Waffen-Revue in Germany, they probably were an important new addition to the publicly available sources on German weapons and were used as a reference by various authors, including Walther Speilberger, renowned for his volumes on German armour from the same period.

Today, much of the data can be aquired from sources based on archival research in papers with more reliable information, but it is still a nice compilation of data, with some unusual snippets of information.

cbo