M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns

[Cross]

Originally Posted by cbo

What I'm objecting to is the notion that Achilles should be used because it is an official name. It was, but only within the walls of the DTD.

Hi CBO,

Well at least you recognize that ‘Achilles’ was an official name, but it obviously didn’t remain within the walls of the DTD, because now – like it or not – it is widely recognized.

But this is all academic, as it doesn’t much matter which department where called what when; or which source trail backs it up.

The fact is, the British M10 is widely recognized around the world, in books and on the internet as the ‘Achilles’ and ‘Wolverine’.

After this thread I looked at SPWaW, and the 3in version is called ‘Wolverine’ the 17Pdr ‘Achilles II C’. I don’t mention WaW as reputable source, not at all, but as another example of common usage.

Armour
As for referencing a site which has “anonymous” in the title, well I didn’t claim it was a credible source, in fact I was suspicious of the info. When you are talking about WWII trivia, you can find seven sites with eight different opinions; and half those sites have very official sounding names.

cheers,
Cross

[cbo]

Originally Posted by Cross

Well at least you recognize that ‘Achilles’ was an official name, but it obviously didn’t remain within the walls of the DTD, because now – like it or not – it is widely recognized.

Revisit my first post - I'm saying the same thing I've been saying all along.

The fact is, the British M10 is widely recognized around the world, in books and on the internet as the ‘Achilles’ and ‘Wolverine’.

...and I have just told you why it is so. Doesn't change the fact that it was never used during the war outside the DTD and Wolverine has no official origin and no one - not even on the Interweb, seems to be able to agree on what Wolverine is actually referring to

But I can see that you subscribe to the "if 1.00.000.000.000. flies like ****, then **** must be the greatest thing"-school of thought

After this thread I looked at SPWaW, and the 3in version is called ‘Wolverine’ the 17Pdr ‘Achilles II C’. I don’t mention WaW as reputable source, not at all, but as another example of common usage.

In my world, SPWaW is not a reputable source for anything

Also, in my world, reputable sources are those which has their references in order, which excludes 99,9% of Interweb pages which cannot even be bothered to list the books from which they are illigally copying pictures and information.

Armour
As for referencing a site which has “anonymous” in the title, well I didn’t claim it was a credible source, in fact I was suspicious of the info.

Why, then, do you think its take on names are credible....?

Dont get me wrong, in this day and age, you sometime have to rely on Interweb for information on obscure things, but the basic rules of research still applies. What Mr. Bunny thinks and writes without reference to anything is useless dribble that no one should bother much about. At least go for webpages which has a known author and have some kind of references. They are out there, you know

cbo

[Cross]

Originally Posted by cbo

Why, then, do you think its take on names are credible....?
cbo

Hi CBO,

I don't. I never used that source to suggest anything about names. That source was merely showing where the armour quote came from. And my reference treated the source with scepticism.

Look, I have constantly agreed with you that 'Wolverine and Achilles' were probably not used by WWII troops. My very first reply to you made that clear, and I've continued to agree with you.

My assertion (stated in my first reply and subsequently) is that the game should use names that are universally accepted and recognised by 21st Century players.

Advanced Squad Leader: Wolverine and Achilles

Battlefront and Flames of War Minatures: Wolverine and Achilles

Bovington Tank Museum: "Precise Name: 17 Pounder Achilles Mark IIc"

But BTM lists this vehicle as "M10 (17Pdr)" which is historically correct.

CBO, remind me never to play ancient Eygyptian/Roman wargaming with you: "Dude, it's not a catapult it's a Catapultae Marcus XVII."

peace,
Cross

[cbo]

lmp, Cross

When arguments fail, one hears only mockery and silence

I might want to remind Cross, that he initially wrote, as a argument for changing the names of the M10 in the British OOB:

British names
‘Wolverine’, was the British name for the above unconverted M10’s in British service, but Achilles I/II was the official British name for unconverted M10’s, aka. 3in SP Wolverine.

Achilles Ic/IIc, was the British name for M10’s converted to 17Pdr gun. aka. 17Pdr SP Achilles.

As I think we both agree now, Wolverine was never a British name for anything and that Achilles was a name only used within the walls of the DTD, not even being used in manuals for the M10.

In your initial post you never made the argument that the game should use these names because they were in common use or well known by players in the 21st Century.

Hence my argument that it would be silly to change the name from something which obviously works to something which is simply wrong in the case of "Wolverine".

I have no real beef with your revised position that the game should use names that players recognize when possible.

Personally, I would go for something as close to what the vehicles were actually called, if possible, as I see no harm in a game being educational and aid in dispelling old myths, be it with regards to tactics, performance or, in this case names.

cbo

PS: lmp, I'm not getting "heated", I'm just persistent. But I must admit, perhaps, to a slight intolerance of people arguing on the basis of pseudofacts and thing they just make up