Nations under CBM 1.6

[Mardagg]

Originally Posted by vfb

I wouldn't take E9 with CBM, E9 will just keep your rider alive longer. Now that MR on the hunter spider is acceptable, there's not much reason to want the rider to stay alive. So, grab yourself a rainbow bless and/or some nice scales.

The rider got a lot more offensive power.
If you want to push the early game with Machaka as much as possible,like i do,E9 is a must.Reinvig + 4 more protection make your riders like 3 times more durable.
And i get pretty nice scales,too,btw...

But sure,like Sombre mentioned before,concentrating on the spider is an interesting option now and allows for a lot more magic diversity.The MR is still low,though.

[vfb]

Originally Posted by Mardagg

The rider got a lot more offensive power.

Are we talking about the same thing?. The only weaponry on a Black Hunter that's more damaging than a Hunter Spider is its lance. And it gets to use that once per battle. And since your numbers are probably smaller than enemy numbers, oneshot weapons don't make a whole lot of difference. If you're fighting equivalent-sized units: you own Elephants no matter what shape you are in; if you're fighting Hydras, then you're better off in spider shape anyway.

I'd rather pay zero upkeep than have the lance.

Originally Posted by Mardagg

If you want to push the early game with Machaka as much as possible,like i do,E9 is a must.Reinvig + 4 more protection make your riders like 3 times more durable.

Yeah, that was my whole point. You want the rider to die.

Originally Posted by Mardagg

And i get pretty nice scales,too,btw...

Good for you. With a rainbow bless, you'll have additional magic diversity too.

Originally Posted by Mardagg

But sure,like Sombre mentioned before,concentrating on the spider is an interesting option now and allows for a lot more magic diversity.The MR is still low,though.

No it's not, it's 10, which is average (and just 1 less than the rider had). And it's more than 10 if you take an S bless from a rainbow god.

E9 buys you nothing for the late game, and it makes your net income lower.

[Mardagg]

Huh?
The rider got a spear in addition to the lance.
In addition,the death poison attack of the rider is strength 18,whereas the spider only bites with strength 13.Thats quite a big difference for such a powerful attack.

[vfb]

Originally Posted by Mardagg

Huh?
The rider got a spear in addition to the lance.
In addition,the death poison attack of the rider is strength 18,whereas the spider only bites with strength 13.Thats quite a big difference for such a powerful attack.

It's not a poison attack for either 18 or 13 dam. It's a physical attack, with death poison if the defender takes any damage. I only ever see little green 3s and 4s, no matter if it's the spiders with riders, or just spiders. If you're worried 13 is not enough to punch thru MA armor, you can add B4. You even get a little more out of that spear you like, in that case. I'm not too excited about spears.

[Mardagg]

[quote=vfb;725054]

Originally Posted by Mardagg

No it's not, it's 10, which is average (and just 1 less than the rider had). And it's more than 10 if you take an S bless from a rainbow god.

E9 buys you nothing for the late game, and it makes your net income lower.

lol,what do you want to achieve here?
You want to show me how useful spiders are now in later battles vs humans?
MR 10,MR 11,hell even MR14 with S9 blessing are a joke for an Sc type expensive unit.
They are for Early game mainly and to a lesser extend for midgame.
I dont need any MR there,i dont need any S9 there.
S9 makes the hunters much worse in comparison to E9 vs indies and early game humans.
U cant rely on spiders wihtout riders alone for that matter.
IF u would take S9N9,we could talk again.But that really doesnt allow for good scales anymore and still leaves u with a v fragile rider and a durable but weak offensive spider.
And why do you even talk about late game,when i always stated that i concentrate on early game with that blessing??

[vfb]

Originally Posted by Mardagg

lol,what do you want to achieve here?
You want to show me how useful spiders are now in later battles vs humans?
MR 10,MR 11,hell even MR14 with S9 blessing are a joke for an Sc type expensive unit.
They are for Early game mainly and to a lesser extend for midgame.
I dont need any MR there,i dont need any S9 there.
S9 makes the hunters much worse in comparison to E9 vs indies and early game humans.
U cant rely on spiders wihtout riders alone for that matter.
IF u would take S9N9,we could talk again.But that really doesnt allow for good scales anymore and still leaves u with a v fragile rider and a durable but weak offensive spider.
And why do you even talk about late game,when i always stated that i concentrate on early game with that blessing??

What I want to achieve: I don't want to pay upkeep for my spider horde, that's what I want.

You said spider MR was less than average, and that's wrong, because it's exactly average.

And I do want E+S on my god for the late game. I never said S9. Obviously you are joking about that, since S9 is for low-prot jags/vestals, not for a high-HP regenerating beast.

I don't understand why you say that you only want to concentrate on the early game. You don't even need E9 in the early game, unless you are trying to get all your Black Hunters to survive to the midgame in rider form. If all you want to do is expand in the early game, take an A3W3E3F3N3D3B3S3 bless, that will do you just fine.

If you must know, I'm using a E4N4S4B4 bless.

How well does that work, versus E9N4?

Well, a few more spiders will be in spider form instead of having riders. Damn you riders, die! So you'll still have to fork out some monthly cash for their pensions. But not as much as if they all had riders.

Your god will have done some nice site-searching for you, it's not like you need him fighting. E4N4S4B4 is not all you get with a rainbow, so he can find sites with a minor path like W too. He'll be able to forge lots of nice items, summon some golems, maybe throw in a few surpises here and there. He can make all the rings you want. He can actually dispel stuff.

[Mardagg]

[quote=vfb;725152]

Originally Posted by Mardagg

What I want to achieve: I don't want to pay upkeep for my spider horde, that's what I want.

You said spider MR was less than average, and that's wrong, because it's exactly average.

And I do want E+S on my god for the late game. I never said S9. Obviously you are joking about that, since S9 is for low-prot jags/vestals, not for a high-HP regenerating beast.

I don't understand why you say that you only want to concentrate on the early game. You don't even need E9 in the early game, unless you are trying to get all your Black Hunters to survive to the midgame in rider form. If all you want to do is expand in the early game, take an A3W3E3F3N3D3B3S3 bless, that will do you just fine.

If you must know, I'm using a E4N4S4B4 bless.

How well does that work, versus E9N4?

Well, a few more spiders will be in spider form instead of having riders. Damn you riders, die! So you'll still have to fork out some monthly cash for their pensions. But not as much as if they all had riders.

Your god will have done some nice site-searching for you, it's not like you need him fighting. E4N4S4B4 is not all you get with a rainbow, so he can find sites with a minor path like W too. He'll be able to forge lots of nice items, summon some golems, maybe throw in a few surpises here and there. He can make all the rings you want. He can actually dispel stuff.

for the record,i said MR is still low.
What i meant by low i did make clear in my last post.
U didnt say at any point in your posts what you are using for magic paths ,u were just randomly nitpicking on my statements,even giving away just plain wrong game info here and there.Overseeing the spear and the much lower strength on the Spider form,just let me to the conclusion you have no idea what you are talking about,at that time.
the spider bite will penetrate alot more often the opponents armor on the rider form,thus triggering the death poison more often.
The fangs of the spider form dont web,JUST LOOK AT THE GAME ONE TIME.So both forms got exactly 1 chance to web.Excuse if i understand your statement there wrong,it was a little confusing.
Your build is interesting.
Sombre came up with that point much earlier though and i did agree.It helps to read the whole thread before posting.
Your build is interesting but much inferior to E9N4 for early game purposes.Just test it and then compare.I did this tests already months ago,when CBM1.6 came out.
E4N4S4x4 awake pretender means worse scales and worse early expansion than my build,using imprisoned pretender.
U solve the S problem though,which i can only solve with having luck.Some riders die,some still dont for you.Its not much upkeep u got less there.Your offensive power for fights vs humans is considerable less though with spiders only.
For midgame though,imagine you got mostly spiders, I got mostly riders.Essentially my troops can survive a lot longer simply bc of the 2 shapes.
Also having Protection 20 is a lot worse than 24.Ive encountered those 4 points of armor make a huge difference in the MA.

[WraithLord]

Come Mardagg, I invite you to use this build in the next MP game I host (after first Sharivar ends). Let's see how it holds up against non newb human players. I'm truly interested in the results and not being sarcastic, condescending or any some such.

[Mardagg]

i am absolutely sure we will meet somewhere in the future

Currently i am doing well in both of my MP games,gotta wait until i am down to 1 game.
I will host a game then,MA standard settings,you are very much invited.
Maybe,just maybe,i will have the surprise effect again then at that time...because atm every non newb would know before the game starts what i am up for.

Actually i am very unhappy about how everyone knows my build beforehand now and especially about how the discussion unfolded.
I should never have posted in detail here