Magic Items under CBM

[Amorphous]

Originally Posted by Sombre

The task for which it was primarily intended isn't worth the investment and can't be made so. In order for people to make use of it, it therefore needs to be improved in other areas.

Has anyone ever used the imp axe to pillage? Apart from to test it?

I cannot say that I have used the axe, but then I am not that good at pillaging. However that may be, if the ability is worthless as you say, why even keep the axe in the game?

See above. It isn't possible to make repel worth the investment without breaking the item in terms of att and dmg. Also def has nothing to do with repel. If it had att 99 dmg 99 len 6 the repel would be better than awe 0 (anyone passing a non modified morale check will take 1 damage and ignore it, anyone else will take 1 damage and that particular attack they made will be stopped). Still worse than awe 1 though. If it had att 4 and dmg 15 (reasonable stats) then the repel would be much, much worse than awe 0. The actual attacking and doing damage with the weapon is always going to outweigh the repel side of it by miles, simply because of the way repel works.

Apologies, I did not mean to say that defence directly helps with repelling, but the defence helps when your opponents make their morale save. Also it lessens the defence difference with a shield.

Your bog standard shield has parry 4, defence -1 and encumbrance 1, increasing your total defence and parry value with 3. As a sort of standard measure I would say that increasing the defence of a 2-hander with 2 in comparison with a 1-handed variant makes them about equal. You get 1 less total defence and parry value, but since it is pure defence, the top is slightly better and you do get less encumbrance. Making the Enchanted Pike e.g. 3/4 in attack/defence would certainly make it an option over the Enchanted Spear and depending on how you value weapon length it should be in the match with the Enchanted Sword.

While I certainly agree with your assessment of awe as better than repel, I do not think it relevant in this case. None of the items we are comparing have it after all.

Also, repel is certainly not worthless. It is not something that lets you wade into mêlée at leisure, but it does help your defence.

A one handed weapon and a reinvig item take the same number of slots as the wraithsword (2) and are cheaper and better.

Throwing out anything that doesn't do /exactly/ what the wraithsword does while being cheaper and claiming that means the wraithsword has a use does not make sense. Nothing else does exactly what the imp axe does - does that mean it would be fine at 25 death gems and 6 research too?

Look, I keep having to repeat this over and over again: It is not cheaper if you do not have the relevant gems. No matter how many times cheapness is invoked, it still remains untrue in various cases of gem income distribution. A reinvigoration item for 5 nature gems costs you 20 death gems, if that are all the gems you have. A 1-hander is then at least another 5 gems.

I have never required exactly the same as lifedrain, I just require its rough equivalent. Let us examine the aforementioned Fomorian King with a water pick:

We do not have any earth and nature gems to spend on him (and no blood mages in sight either). Not because we do not have any such income, but because it is not good enough to provide for all the Kings and thuggish commanders we produce from our castles and want to be sent to the front in a thuggish capacity. We will be able to provide a lot of the Kings with earth or nature items, but not all of them. So let us put that huge income of death gems to use. 20 of them we convert to nature and a pair of Boots of the Messenger, which nets us reinvigoration 4. Let us further assume that we can scrape together 5 water gems for a Frost Brand for a total cost of 20 death and 5 water gems. So 4 attack and 2 defence from the brand and -1 defence and +4 parry for a total of 4/5 attack/defence. Encumbrance is 5 which translates to 8 for casting purposes. Net fatigue gain is 1 per turn. Casting Quicken self is not a good idea, as that would render the fatigue gain 6 per turn. The 28 fatigue you get from casting it is not easily reinvigorated either.

The other version is just putting down 25 death gems for a Wraith Sword. Attack and defence is 2/3 and encumbrance 4, 6 for casting purposes. Whenever he hits (for 34 damage, which is less than 41, but quite enough to hurt a lot of things), he is reinvigorated for 10. One hit every other turn is enough to get a better reinvigoration rate than the frost version and he is gaining fatigue slower. Now, the wraith version benefits greatly from casting Quicken Self. He would gain fatigue at a rate of 8 per turn, so as long as he manages to do a total of 4 damage over his 2 attacks in a turn, he is set. Quickening also means an improvement of attack/defence of 3/3, bringing the total up to 5/6, which is better than the other, and no shield hits to worry about. Direct damage is now 2x34 instead of 41, which means that for protection values of 27 and under it is as good as or better than with the Frost Brand.

Of course, this does not mean that the Wraith Sword is always a better choice even under the given gem-constraints. The frost version will still be generally better at clearing chaff non-resistant to cold and targets with protection values a bit higher than 27. Fielding troops and thugs with cold resistance against nations utilizing Frost Brands, Rime Hauberks and Breath of Winter should not be unusual though. And there are plenty of nations that do not have the capability of fielding legions of 30+ protection units.

Again, it is a question of gem-scarcity and solving a problem that actually exists. Getting reinvigoration is just not particularly cheap when you lack the needed supply of nature or earth gems or the paths and research for the right spells. And at least in my experience, thugs and SCs that accrue fatigue to quickly tend to die.

[Mardagg]

Originally Posted by Amorphous

Of course, this does not mean that the Wraith Sword is always a better choice even under the given gem-constraints. .

And that is exactly the problem.

You are painting a best case scenario containing 1 out of 3 producable Fomorian cap only SC`s with several given gem-constraints where the Wraith Sword should be an instant no-brainer under better balanced conditions.
And it still is not!

Even with your example of a rare situation there is still a lot left,that can be done different:

-Earth blessing,pretty advisable with that nation anyways,gives further reinvig which do change quite a lot with your math
-Instead of using the W random Giants,you could use the D randoms and cast soul vortex,equipping these guys with other equipment in addition,making them superior.
-You could give the W guys boots of quickness,a W1 path isnt ideal for casting water buffs in battle anyways.
-The rainbow armor is pretty nice for the giants in general instead of boots of the messenger,if available,can be alchemized,too.
-Girdle of might is cheaper to alchemize and might leave gems for 1 more item,while just offering 1 less reinvig.
-etc.

I understand what you are talking about gem sparsity and such, but why not still making the Wraith sword better?
Do you really think those fomorian giants would be overpowered with like double the base damage for the wraith sword or with making it like 10-15 death gems?
As you said,with that inherent strength, you get the max partial life drain,if you hit,anyways already most of the time.
Different from fomorioa though like 95% of the other nations would benefit quite some time from such an improvement ...and for those nations the wraith sword is just never,ever an option atm,even under the most special conditions!

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Amorphous

I cannot say that I have used the axe, but then I am not that good at pillaging. However that may be, if the ability is worthless as you say, why even keep the axe in the game?

Because it's a fear causing weapon with an interesting description? You're saying it's fine because it has a specific thing it helps with a lot. I'm saying that thing is basically worthless and no-one uses it for that. In cases like this it makes sense to improve the weapon so it's usable for other reasons, with the pillage as a tiny niche bonus.

Making the Enchanted Pike e.g. 3/4 in attack/defence would certainly make it an option over the Enchanted Spear and depending on how you value weapon length it should be in the match with the Enchanted Sword.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with repel, that's the point. Repel isn't /worthless/, it's just so totally overshadowed by everything else that it's not worth trying to boost. If you increased the stats that actually had anything to do with repel, the improvement would be like 95% damage dealt, 5% repel. So why try to tailor the boost to do anything related to repelling? Why pretend that the added att and dmg is there to make the repel better?

Also, repel is certainly not worthless. It is not something that lets you wade into mêlée at leisure, but it does help your defence.

Sure. And 1 extra hp helps your survivability and isn't worthless. Who cares? It's too slight a difference to be meaningful and definitely not the feature around which you'd balance an item.

More of the same

You keep talking about this situation where you have lots of death and apparently no gems of other sorts. If you're that focused on death why the hell would you be using it on a wraithsword when your thugs are going to be enc 0 undead? Why pay a premium to try and get reinvig when you can just sidestep it? You're comparing wraithsword to alchemising gems wholescale into a different type (something truly inefficient) and it's still barely coming out ahead in cost, even with apparently the ideal SC chassis to carry it.

[Amorphous]

Originally Posted by Sombre

Because it's a fear causing weapon with an interesting description? You're saying it's fine because it has a specific thing it helps with a lot. I'm saying that thing is basically worthless and no-one uses it for that. In cases like this it makes sense to improve the weapon so it's usable for other reasons, with the pillage as a tiny niche bonus.

I did not intend to say that it was fine, merely that I did not really understand what you found wrong with it. My understanding now is that you want the fear but could not care less about the pillaging. Is that correct?

I am of the opinion that if something is really worthless, then it should not be present in the stats of an item - the story around it may be a different thing. And if you remove the pillage bonus from the axe, I do not really see it as the same axe anymore. Conceivably I could be convinced otherwise.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with repel, that's the point. Repel isn't /worthless/, it's just so totally overshadowed by everything else that it's not worth trying to boost. If you increased the stats that actually had anything to do with repel, the improvement would be like 95% damage dealt, 5% repel. So why try to tailor the boost to do anything related to repelling? Why pretend that the added att and dmg is there to make the repel better?

I was thinking more in the line of theme preserving.

As you may have noticed I proposed an increase in defence, not in damage. And I see a repel weapon as rather defensive. I mentioned attack earlier as well, because each increase of 2 there, would make another repel attack likely (morale save remains the same). Thus in keeping with the theme while making the weapon noticeably better.

Sure. And 1 extra hp helps your survivability and isn't worthless. Who cares? It's too slight a difference to be meaningful and definitely not the feature around which you'd balance an item.

I do not think it is so worthless that it lacks any meaning. It is of rather small use, sure, but certainly not negligible. If you are swamped in opponents, I can see it, but against single or few it can matter. Consequently it should be a factor in balancing.

You keep talking about this situation where you have lots of death and apparently no gems of other sorts. If you're that focused on death why the hell would you be using it on a wraithsword when your thugs are going to be enc 0 undead? Why pay a premium to try and get reinvig when you can just sidestep it? You're comparing wraithsword to alchemising gems wholescale into a different type (something truly inefficient) and it's still barely coming out ahead in cost, even with apparently the ideal SC chassis to carry it.

I do not know that it is the ideal chassis, it was just the first thing that sprang to my mind. There are other strong commanders in the game that do not have 0 encumbrance. And if you have access to them, summoning undead thugs may just not be very efficient. If you have so many thugs that you have trouble decking them out, summoning more that are not any better than the ones you already have is not going to help much.

However that may be, if an item functions in a niche - though small - I do not think it needs any big boost. I like a few seldom used niche items in the game.

It is also not really a question of you not having any other gems than death gems, it is a question of not having enough other gems to cover all your needs. That happens to me a lot in my games at least.

Sure, I can think of what I would like to forge for my commanders, but if I do not have enough of the right gems, I have to make do with items that would be suboptimal given another gem distribution. And sometimes paying a bit more for an effect now nets you a better position than waiting and hoping for the future to line up nicely in keeping with your vision of reasonable gem income and expenditure.

Thats much more complicated.
Essentially,every built Wraith sword means less Tartarians to field.

No, not if you are constrained more by nature than by death. We have been over this.

Seriously,you have so many uses for death gems,that making the wraith sword better only makes the decision more difficult what to do with them.
Keep in mind also,that lowering the cost means lowering the casting requirements.E.g. D2 mages are better to come by for every nation.
Death alyways will be a very strong path,no matter how you alter the items,thats just how it is in DOM3.
I would be much more hesitant to add a new and very good fire item on the other hand since that would have a much bigger impact on the overall balance already known in this game.

I remain unconvinced by the argument that since death is powerful, we might as well make it more powerful.

Say u take only E4 bless,just +2 reinvig ,makes your example already slightly in favor of the frost brand +boots of messenger build imo.Although i still cant figure out,what shield u did take,when you are mentioning parry.

No, 2 reinvig does not really change it as far as quicken goes. And the shield is the one the Fomorian King comes equiped with.

And thats not even the best build following your (not advisable)alchemize strategy imo: instead of alchemizing the gems for the boots you could alchemize for the cheap girdle,leaving you more gems left,not less(!), or you could alchemize for the rainbow armor,adding MR in addition to reinvig,which is also nice to have for the giants.

Sorry, I was under the impression that the boots cost 5 gems, that is certainly what I used in calculating how many death gems it represented. If not, exchange them for a 5 gem reinvigoration item. Of course, you will then get less invigoration out of it.

Sure,Soul vortex might not yet be researched.
Isnt it just better then to wait for soul vortex to be researched or to make it an early research goal before mass producing SC`s with expensive weapons that become obsolete?

Not necessarily, no. If you are getting the thugs anyway, say by way of recruiting them from your capital, paying more for their equipment now may be more beneficial.



Looking at the thread this far, I do not really see any point to discuss further about the Wraith Sword as things mostly seem to go round and round (my own arguments included). I remain unconvinced, but I am not so stubborn as to not recognize that I seem to be the only one not thinking the sword needs a major overhaul. And I do not wish to take over the thread with a lost cause. I will happily give answers about my views on the Wraith Sword if someone directs a question to me explicitly, but otherwise I will keep my views to myself.

Hope that is agreeable to everyone.

[Mardagg]

Originally Posted by Amorphous

Sorry, I was under the impression that the boots cost 5 gems, that is certainly what I used in calculating how many death gems it represented. If not, exchange them for a 5 gem reinvigoration item. Of course, you will then get less invigoration out of it.

yes,you are right.I was somehow under the impression the boots are 10N.Sorry for this.

I hope you will still take part in the discussion about the brands since the opinions seem to differ much more there.

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Amorphous

I am of the opinion that if something is really worthless, then it should not be present in the stats of an item - the story around it may be a different thing. And if you remove the pillage bonus from the axe, I do not really see it as the same axe anymore. Conceivably I could be convinced otherwise.

You can't remove the pillage bonus from the axe.

[Mardagg]

Ok,since i will be away for 1-2 days soon,i will summarize what we got so far:


1-Handed Items

-nerfing the Fire and Frost Brand is undecided

-improving Sword of Swiftness is only of minor importance,if at all

-making the Shadow Brand stronger and more expensive seems declined

2-Handed Items

-improving Wraith Sword by quite a lot is accepted

-certain other 2h items need to be improved is accepted

Shields

-Vine shield being overpowered is undecided
(how does the strength check exactly work?)

Uniques

-making fever fetish non-unique is declined

- the need for a new easier available earth booster is accepted
(personally i like the idea of making the tome of gaiea non-unique and naming it e.g. bloodroot manual(like sombre said) very much)

[Mardagg]

I would like to point the discussion now towards the Hell Sword a bit,i mentioned it already in the opening post.
Its certainly better than its "Death cousin" at the moment,but still underpowered imo.
And if you make the Wraith Sword stronger,u gotta make the Hell Sword stronger,it feels.
I do share some concerns here though,that have been brought up for the Wraith Sword.
Fire and Blood magic is only for some nations and Blood is easily massable.That way,the Hellsword could easily be made overpowered.

Current stats are:
15 Blood/10 Fire , 3/0 Att/def,9 damage
Partial Life drain,FR 50%,Berserk +3

Its the special effects that make it better than the WS,but the raw point values are slightly worse,simply too bad for a heavy 2 handed weapon,meant to be Construction 6.
I think one of the following ideas would be thematic:

1.Increasing attack to 6 or 7,maybe increasing damage in addition,to like 12-14
or
2.making it Armor piercing and maybe increasing attack to 4-5

What do you think?

[Amorphous]

Originally Posted by Sombre

You can't remove the pillage bonus from the axe.

My thinking was more in the line of effectively removing the axe and creating a new weapon with fear and the same look, but no pillage bonus.

Is that not possible?

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Amorphous

My thinking was more in the line of effectively removing the axe and creating a new weapon with fear and the same look, but no pillage bonus.

Is that not possible?

Why not just increase the damage and stats on the axe so someone might think about actually making/using one? I mean, so it has a pillaging bonus... whatever. That's not worth anything, so it shouldn't effect our valuation of what it does and what it should do.