Night of the Long Knives?

[Squirrelloid]

For what its worth, Sombre has been totally forthright about his end of the situation via IRC, including direct quotations of PMs. So protecting Sombre's privacy seems to be a moot point.

I'm not sure moderators or administrators should be able to claim privacy for decisions made in an official capacity, since those decisions should be open to scrutiny.

No assumptions have been made as to the sequence of events by those of us who talked to Sombre - we got them right from the horse's mouth as it were. The only thing uncertain is what the people on the administrative end were thinking at each step of the process. If those details aren't going to be shared then I think people are rightfully upset because a permanent ban seems to be without just cause from the evidence available, based on the forum's own rules. And while Sombre's stature as one of the primary contributors of new content makes us care quite a bit more than if he were some wet-behind-the-ears poster, the lack of sufficient apparent cause should be worrying regardless of who it is.

Based on the events as they are known to me, should I have been acting in an administrative capacity, I might have temp banned him. I probably wouldn't even have done that. The initial penalty seems to have covered the only real offense he committed. His lack of concern over what amounts to a slap on the wrist from a forum that is at best related to an elective luxury activity should be somewhat expected -- if that lack of concern led to more disruptive behavior than that behavior should have been punished as appropriate. Punishing thoughtcrime seems a bit Orwellian even for a 'privately-owned forum'.

[Annette]

Maer,

I greatly appreciate your productive post. You are correct - while these forums are not a profit center for Shrapnel Games, they do exist as a sales tool. Two very important components of the tool are our customers who contribute valuable content and our moderators who volunteer their time to help us maintain a peaceful, productive environment. Without their unpaid help, Shrapnel Games would have a difficult time keeping these forums open for our customers' use.

We all understand that tempers will flare and posts will be made that violate the rules we've put in place. And we appreciate cooperation when a moderator must step in to calm things down. The problem in this situation, and the reason I exercised our right to escalate beyond our infraction system, is that Sombre indicated to us that he did not intend to honor our requests to follow the standards we expect of all our users and that he would ignore future private messages asking him to refrain from using personal attacks. Would a temporary ban change his mind? So we're faced with the question, do we allow one user to post in a manner that we would not tolerate from anyone else?

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by Annette

Maer,

I greatly appreciate your productive post. You are correct - while these forums are not a profit center for Shrapnel Games, they do exist as a sales tool. Two very important components of the tool are our customers who contribute valuable content and our moderators who volunteer their time to help us maintain a peaceful, productive environment. Without their unpaid help, Shrapnel Games would have a difficult time keeping these forums open for our customers' use.

We all understand that tempers will flare and posts will be made that violate the rules we've put in place. And we appreciate cooperation when a moderator must step in to calm things down. The problem in this situation, and the reason I exercised our right to escalate beyond our infraction system, is that Sombre indicated to us that he did not intend to honor our requests to follow the standards we expect of all our users and that he would ignore future private messages asking him to refrain from using personal attacks. Would a temporary ban change his mind? So we're faced with the question, do we allow one user to post in a manner that we would not tolerate from anyone else?

But why not follow your own set of rules? Just let him ignore the rules. Get banned 3 times -> permaban. Just ignore that he doesn't care. Follow your own set of guidelines.

Now he was permabanned for saying he didn't care. And a huge ****storm went down on the forum.

[Maerlande]

Originally Posted by Annette

Maer,

I greatly appreciate your productive post. You are correct - while these forums are not a profit center for Shrapnel Games, they do exist as a sales tool. Two very important components of the tool are our customers who contribute valuable content and our moderators who volunteer their time to help us maintain a peaceful, productive environment. Without their unpaid help, Shrapnel Games would have a difficult time keeping these forums open for our customers' use.

We all understand that tempers will flare and posts will be made that violate the rules we've put in place. And we appreciate cooperation when a moderator must step in to calm things down. The problem in this situation, and the reason I exercised our right to escalate beyond our infraction system, is that Sombre indicated to us that he did not intend to honor our requests to follow the standards we expect of all our users and that he would ignore future private messages asking him to refrain from using personal attacks. Would a temporary ban change his mind? So we're faced with the question, do we allow one user to post in a manner that we would not tolerate from anyone else?

Well Annette. I think your posted policy of 2 temporary bans leading to a permanent ban would have been quite sufficient in this case. Put Sombre on probation. If he doesn't want to then follow the rules you've got a much stronger case. If the plan was to reduce disruption by removing a disruptive influence it failed miserably. Sombre's level of disruption is rarely that bad. Besides, a bit of disruption provides drama and keeps excitement going.

Unless I'm mistaken I didn't suggest that Sombre get off without consequence. But this decision to permanently ban him is extreme and I strongly believe it failed to serve your purposes. It also clearly pissed me off a lot. If you permanently banned me for the same infraction I'd work very hard to move all my friends and games over to Something Awful or some other dominions 3 environment. But I prefer to stay here.

When I acted in much the same manner as Sombre, you gave me a temporary ban. And honestly, when I go on a terror run here I make a much bigger mess than Sombre. Look at last night. The only difference appears to be I didn't tell you that I won't follow the rules in the future. But my offence was significantly greater than Sombre's. I got a polite warning this morning and replied positively. I stopped spamming.

Should you make a special case for certain members of this community? Why not? You have all the power and can rewrite the rules as required. You own these boards. The question is really why make a special case for Sombre. Because he's important to this community. Besides, you made a special case already. You immediately permanently banned him for what could very well be just a fit of anger.

[WraithLord]

( Just learned about this whole episode from this thread and the link that was given. )

I couldn't have phrased my opinion any better than Baalz said it.
I've just this tiny bit to add -
I do like the forum's overall tone to be as polite and constructive is it's generally is and I appreciate both the mods. efforts to that end and the natural good will of most players to keep it that way.
I think permanent ban should only be applied in extreme cases and according to the forum’s stated 3-strikes-and-you’re-out-rule. Extreme cases in my dictionary are, cheating, advocating for piracy, spamming, consistently stalking other player/s etc.
This doesn’t seem to be the case here.
I would like to humbly ask that Sombre’s sentence be sweetened. Please temp ban him as per the forum rules. Consider this, if you will, an act in favor of the community.
We would think no less of you, on the contrary we will appreciate and respect you more for that!

[Peacekeeper]

Originally Posted by Annette

Maer,

I greatly appreciate your productive post. You are correct - while these forums are not a profit center for Shrapnel Games, they do exist as a sales tool. Two very important components of the tool are our customers who contribute valuable content and our moderators who volunteer their time to help us maintain a peaceful, productive environment. Without their unpaid help, Shrapnel Games would have a difficult time keeping these forums open for our customers' use.

We all understand that tempers will flare and posts will be made that violate the rules we've put in place. And we appreciate cooperation when a moderator must step in to calm things down. The problem in this situation, and the reason I exercised our right to escalate beyond our infraction system, is that Sombre indicated to us that he did not intend to honor our requests to follow the standards we expect of all our users and that he would ignore future private messages asking him to refrain from using personal attacks. Would a temporary ban change his mind? So we're faced with the question, do we allow one user to post in a manner that we would not tolerate from anyone else?

you handled this poorly. Be big enough to admit it and move on.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

I'm not sure moderators or administrators should be able to claim privacy for decisions made in an official capacity, since those decisions should be open to scrutiny.

If this were a public discussion forum, you would have a point.

However, it is not. It is a private forum for a commercial entity with very clear rules. As most other moderated commercial forums, it bans public discussion and second-guessing of moderator actions as that sort of discussion very seldom provides any sort of benefit to the company or to customers as a whole but do take up a lot of moderator time, keeps grievances going (self-perpetuating and escalating in the worst cases), and gives a bad impression to new forum members.

As is, you may not feel sure that this is the right way for things to work, but you don't have a say.

We are essentially in a private club with clearly stated rules and your choice is to accept the rules (even if you disagree with them) or to get out of the club.

Attempted rules-lawyering of the "I don't think A warrants action B" or "surely their own rules prohibit this because they say that A=>C (if we ignore the anti-rules-lawyering clause in the rules that says that these are guidelines* and the management retains the right to do as it sees fit**)" is futile in any well moderated forum. EDIT: And in case anybody is in doubt; The REASON that it is futile is because the management does not ignore its own anti-rules-lawyering clauses or its retained right to do as it sees fit to better serve the cause for which the forums exist.

* point #1 in the banning section, "but may be tailored on a case by case basis"
** point #7 in the banning section "A permanent ban can be applied for any reason if the Admins determine it is warranted to promote the harmony of the community"


If somebody's response to moderator actions taken against him for violating the rules is to categorically reject changing his actions to avoid doing so in the future, he is likely to be kicked out of the club (for some time or forever), no matter how valuable other members consider him to be; Being popular does not exempt one from following the club rules.

How relevant is my last paragraph to the case on hand with the user Sombre? I neither know, nor care. What I do know is that the forum rules state explicitly how you are supposed to deal with disagreeing with forum moderation: sending a PM or email to the relevant moderator or administrator.


And yes... I too have valued Sombre's positive contributions to this community but I value a well-moderated forum even more. My views on game forum moderation are shaped by experiences ranging from Blizzard's WoW forums (the cesspit of civilized discourse) and Paradox' strategy forums (at the opposite end of the spectrum). The Shrapnel Games' forums definitely belong in the higher end where the signal-to-noise ratio is high and most violations of the forum rules are done when tempers occasionally flare rather than as par for the course - and I really, really, really, hope it stays that way.