OT: Starcraft II and Elemental

[sector24]

There is a lot of feedback, most of it pointing to the game being "fun but unpolished".

http://forums.elementalgame.com/391385

http://forums.elementalgame.com/391443
http://forums.elementalgame.com/391433
(and many more)

Some of the more disturbing stuff is that the "random" maps are not random. The goodies huts are random but you always get some starting resources nearby like fertile land. However the land mass is seeded, meaning that the ocean, mountains, forests, etc. are all static. Kind of takes the wind out of exploration.

Also the tactical combat (which is the biggest draw for me personally) is disabled in multiplayer. It still might be a fun single player game (with time) but I can't see it replacing Dominions.

[LDiCesare]

Originally Posted by sector24

Some of the more disturbing stuff is that the "random" maps are not random. The goodies huts are random but you always get some starting resources nearby like fertile land.

This is much like Civ IV. The default random map generators put a lot of additional resources near the player's starting location.

Originally Posted by sector24

However the land mass is seeded, meaning that the ocean, mountains, forests, etc. are all static. Kind of takes the wind out of exploration.

By seeded, you mean a same seed gives the same result, not that it's always the same seed? Please?

[sector24]

Yes, the same seed will give an identical land mass, just unique goodie huts and resources and neutral monsters, etc. In the current version there are about...15 seeds across all 4 map sizes? Something very small. There is of course the promise of "dozens" of map seeds coming, but still that's not quite random. To equate it to dominions, it's like having dozens of pre-set maps (Parganos, Silent Seas, etc.) but with random magic sites. I would not call that random map generation, and I don't think any Dominions player would either.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally Posted by sector24

Yes, the same seed will give an identical land mass, just unique goodie huts and resources and neutral monsters, etc. In the current version there are about...15 seeds across all 4 map sizes? Something very small. There is of course the promise of "dozens" of map seeds coming, but still that's not quite random. To equate it to dominions, it's like having dozens of pre-set maps (Parganos, Silent Seas, etc.) but with random magic sites. I would not call that random map generation, and I don't think any Dominions player would either.

Pros and Cons. There are times that I wish the mapgen in Dom3 would take a seed.

There is usually a seed. You just dont always get access to it. Unless it randomly reseeds in mid generation its the same whether you know there is a seed or not. Creating a true random in programming languages is a history subject all its own.

And a seed generally means at least 65535 options. Thats alot of maps.

If properly used a seeded generator can create a map hundreds of times larger than other games without adding to the size of the game, cpu load, or memory use.

[sector24]

To be honest I don't consider Sourceforge and similar projects to be successors in any tangible way. If you don't own the intellectual rights to the project, you can't make the sequel. You can certainly make something, but when everyone is a volunteer the odds of any project going all the way to completion go way down.

As far as the seeds go, I do understand how they are supposed to work. However, the way Stardock talked about them it seems like only certain seeds have valid resources surrounding the starting areas. Since not all seeds are valid, we have to rely on them to provide them for us. Technically you can delete the seed altogether and create a totally random map, or use a manual brute force attack to generate all maps and then manually check which ones work for you. I think that's only for people who want to play Elemental: War of Boredom.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally Posted by sector24

To be honest I don't consider Sourceforge and similar projects to be successors in any tangible way. If you don't own the intellectual rights to the project, you can't make the sequel. You can certainly make something, but when everyone is a volunteer the odds of any project going all the way to completion go way down.

I fully agree. In fact, I mentioned it in another thread where they were discussing how great games would be if the devs listened to the community. Im not against it. But everything has its pros and cons. Open projects tend to show the other side of that argument at a high percentage.

But it still makes a good hunting ground. Sometimes one of them will actually get to a working alpha. They are often just messing around with it but once it gets there you can talk to them about going legit. Sometimes it involves giving up the games working name for a completely new one and dropping some other too-close-to-hide characteristics of the old game but if they want to continue onward to a marketable product they can.

But like I say, until they have a working playable alpha its usually not worth talking to them. 90% of them fall out before doing any real code.

As far as the seeds go, I do understand how they are supposed to work. However, the way Stardock talked about them it seems like only certain seeds have valid resources surrounding the starting areas. Since not all seeds are valid, we have to rely on them to provide them for us. Technically you can delete the seed altogether and create a totally random map, or use a manual brute force attack to generate all maps and then manually check which ones work for you. I think that's only for people who want to play Elemental: War of Boredom.

Thats sucks. Ive gotten used to developers not making good use of seeds but that sounds like not even making average use of it. On the other hand, changing out the seed-feed for a generator is something that can easily be done at the last minute so maybe its just that way now for testing purposes (I hope). Well Brads fame has always been AI, not maps.