Czech OOB 5.5

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

So I assume then you had no idea every OOB is run through a cost calculator program before release and that automatically adjusts the cost of a unit based on a universal formula ? It's in the OOB folder.

You're right - I had no idea. That's why I'm not messing with costs

As for formations, in most cases I've indicated problems. I usually check formations in cases of earliest/last unit. Frankly, I haven't checked formation for "fighter-bombers", assuming, that all period is covered anyway. But as for "level bombers", I've indicated need for new formation for Il-28. I'll also deal in detail with infantry formations later (with APCs and stuff).

As for Yak/Jak-23 - of course, you hold the key. I'm only suggesting changes which might or might not be applied, it's up to your decision. I'm only trying to provide as much info on real thing, as possible. By the way, "Jak" is also Polish, German, Hungarian, Finnish, Croatian, Dutch (OK, they had no Yaks) spelling.

Regards,
Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Aircraft

145 Yak-23 - Czech spelling is Jak-23 (it also carried designation S-101).

Yeah that's great. See Andy's recent reply on this subject on another post on this forum. So when I need to look for all Yak-23's in a game that contains 35,666 units I need to remember that the Czechs are special and call it Jak ? This is exactly how we get reports like..." Why is it all the Yak-ZZs are XX but the Czech Jak ( or S-101 )that is the same aircraft is YY "

We appreciate the info on the units. Please also appreciate we will be making changes to the game based on our own needs to deal with the ever increasing size of the database.



Don

[PN79]

Hallo
My notes to list created here (from the start):
- flame tanks - Czechoslovakia really did not have any.
- SU-85 was here - several vehicles were used by CS army corps in the USSR and some of them survived war and were stored up to 50s
- BRDM-2 Malutka - only 9P133 variant used
- SP-Mortars - there were only 2S4 Tulpan and ShM-85
- OT-64C SKOT - military designation is OT-64A for turreted variant (and just OT-64 for unarmed), SKOT-XY are factory designations
- OSA-AKM is 9K33M3, there was also one battery of 9K33M2 OSA-AK used for training, I am not sure about year of introduction (about 1982 +/-)
- BVP-1 (and also RPG-7) HE ammo - to my knowledge Czechoslovakia used only HEAT ammo for these weapons
- OT-90 - there was then OT-90M1 with upgraded gear (but no difference in game terms) and OT-90M2 with added armor to turret - basic turret armor is same as in OT-64A - anyway during my service I never saw any OT-90M2, though they were accepted to service - in my opinion only very few vehicles were upgraded
- Strela-10M - only IFF modernized, still in service (OSA-AKM unit was disbanded in 2006)
- we haven't Malutka-2 - there were only 9M14M and 9M14P1
- Strela-2M was introduced in 1973, we haven't basic Strela-2
- 100mm ATG vz.53 - main ATG weapon but not used in bunkers - heavy fortification in southern Moravia (yes that one about many people thinks that did not exists) and around Bratislava used 85mm vz.44/59 fortress ATG (ZiS-S-53 derivative) - we did not used foreign field 100mm ATGs
- 57mm ATG - service ended in around 60s
- 30mm AAG (PLDvK) vz. 53 = towed version --- vz.53/59 = self-propelled
- 122mm - there were M30 howitzers and A19 guns
- 130mm M46 - used since 60s to early 90s
- RPG-2 - we don't used it
- RPG-75 did not replaced RPG-7 - it is supplement, RPG-7 was still main squad anti-tank weapon
- MiG-21PFM - RS-2US - actually during 60s pilots here trained to use this missile against ground targets (as AA was useless)
- BM-13 Katyusha - we don't have it, not even in ww2 (BM-13s which supported CS troops were always Soviet ones)
- MiG-29 - officially removed from service in 1994, stored till deal with Poland
- "... rockets 240 mm. It's not clear, why unit with such old rockets should be available from 1/99." --- it should represent S-24 rockets, MiG-21MFN modernization was about IFF and navigation stuff - only new armament was wiring for R-60 (AA-8) missiles
- MiG-23BN - it should be here and also with Kh-23 missiles (only these -23BN used this missile in CS air force)

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by PN79

- OT-64C SKOT - military designation is OT-64A for turreted variant (and just OT-64 for unarmed), SKOT-XY are factory designations

This issue is messed up. OT-64A is more often encountered for a turreted version, but the only monograph book on OT-64 (Czech, Grada 2010) calls it OT-64 2A, and turretless version - OT-64A (it would be consistent with Polish naming). However, we might leave OT-64A due to popularity. By the way, I wrote before, that they were used until early 1990s, but it seems, that a turreted version with KPVT was still encountered in Czech peacekeeping forces along with 7.62 mm turreted version and 12.7 mm DShKM pivot version.

Originally Posted by PN79

- OT-90 - there was then OT-90M1 with upgraded gear (but no difference in game terms) and OT-90M2 with added armor to turret - basic turret armor is same as in OT-64A - anyway during my service I never saw any OT-90M2, though they were accepted to service - in my opinion only very few vehicles were upgraded

Indeed, quickly browsing Internet I haven't found photos of OT-90, that would show additional armour. Anyway, unit 66 should have turret armor 2/1/1

Originally Posted by PN79

- MiG-21PFM - RS-2US - actually during 60s pilots here trained to use this missile against ground targets (as AA was useless)

Was it strictly for training? With 13 kg warhead and low precision it wouldn't be real threat. Its specifications are wrong in this case, since it has warhead size 15 and HE kill 20 (weapon 104), while Kh-23 has warhead size 12 and HE kill 25 (weapon 206 - it had warhead 108 kg)

Originally Posted by PN79

- "... rockets 240 mm. It's not clear, why unit with such old rockets should be available from 1/99." --- it should represent S-24 rockets, MiG-21MFN modernization was about IFF and navigation stuff - only new armament was wiring for R-60 (AA-8) missiles

Anyway, S-24 rockets were used with MiG-27M from 1969, so it could be changed to this plane. Unit #183 MiG-21MFN doesn't offer anything new, especially EW (which is 0).

Originally Posted by PN79

- MiG-23BN - it should be here and also with Kh-23 missiles (only these -23BN used this missile in CS air force)

So, unit 187 MiG-23ML should be better renamed MiG-23BN (Kh-23 missiles - even up to 4, picture 11143).

MiG-23BN and MiG-27 (unit #184 and other countries) had max speed 1800 km/h (1.7Ma), so it should be lowered from 25. Book on MiG-23/27 confirms maximum load 6 x 500 kg bombs. If rangefinder helps with aircraft, these special ground attack variants had laser RF.

Regards,
Michal

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Anyway, S-24 rockets were used with MiG-27M from 1969, so it could be changed to this plane. Unit #183 MiG-21MFN doesn't offer anything new, especially EW (which is 0).

Oops, MiG-21M naturally, not 27.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

#22 IS-3 - according to an article in HPiM and http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/465 only 2 were bought, although they were used in line unit. More numerous were IS-2 - 8 tanks from 1946 until probably mid-50s (http://vojenstvi.cz/vasedotazy_9.htm , no.132), so maybe it should be changed (or IS-2 should be added).

There are already IS-2's in that OOB ( unit #414 )....

??

Don

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Hope this will help...
OT-90M1 video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9uSO...eature=related

OT-90M2 video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkv5p...eature=related

OT-90 "Tank Day" video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRKSE...eature=related

Other sites...
Third picture down right, Scroll & See...
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1022.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/forum...pic.php?t=1000
http://rangerneil.com/Military_Vehicles/OT90_index.html

Sounds like a couple of people can verify the authenticity. Though on the "other sites" the Czech markings are clear.

I believe the turret to look similiar to the one mounted on the SKOT-64(?).

Regards,
Pat

[Pibwl]

Nice films.

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

OT-90M2 video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkv5p...eature=related

..however in my opinion this is normal OT-90 (or OT-90M1 - version with slight changes) - a turret on this bad quality clip looks smooth, while OT-90M2 should have additional armour of flat plates welded to turret. It all suggests, that OT-90 should have turret armour 2/1/1 in the game, and there is no confirmation, if better armoured variant M2 existed in any significant number. A Polish article from the 1990s claimed, that all were modified this way - but this was apparently too optimistic...

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

I believe the turret to look similiar to the one mounted on the SKOT-64(?).

Right, they were combined from surplus BVP-1 (BMP-1) and withdrawn SKOTs.

As for IS-2 - right, I haven't looked far enough in the oob at that stage to discover it.

Regard
Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

As for IS-2 - right, I haven't looked far enough in the oob at that stage to discover it.

Regard
Michal

.......and 15 seconds with the database check utility looking at the vehicles listed in that unit class would have given you the answer instead of ASSUMING it doesn't exist and we need to add it. Even a quick search for "IS" with "find" would have found it in three tries !

If you want to report errors that's fine, but do me the courtesy of at least checking the entire OOB THEN your own work before posting it.

Thank You.

Don

[Pibwl]

It was an accident, for I haven't seen IS-2 in a group of Soviet-origin tanks in a beginning of list.

I promise I'll check database before proposing new units next time

Maybe I'll finish what I have - although I think, I won't be fiddling with infantry platoons?... (there is quite complete history of infantry/MR platoon structures in Czech Internet, but it would demand creation of several new formations - which I can, of course, propose)

74 Strela-2 Team - http://forum.presscont.eu/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=208 confirms information, that they appeared in CS from 1973 (now: 1/67). Might need change in formations' dates, for it is the only Infantry SAM (although now it appears is some units, that start at earlier date).

Strelas however weren't used in rifle nor MR platoons, which structures are described in Internet in detail. In bigger numbers, they became armament of AA platoons in motor rifle battalions, created only in beginning of 1980s (such platoon consisted of 3 APC, each with 2 Strela teams - http://forum.csla.cz/forums/thread/10.aspx )

82 M52 85mm ATG - proper pic is 25009 (this gun in Austrian service)

265 OT-64A SKOT - according to a book on OT-64, serial production in significant numbers started only in 8/64 and it was officially accepted only in May 1965. Therefore, earliest starting date should be around 1/65 (now: 1/64) (would need date change in formations). It had no fixed armament, only LMGs of troops' firing through open upper hatches.

272 LT-38G - in the Czechoslovak service it was just LT-38, without German variant letters. They were in inventory at least until 1949 (http://vojenstvi.cz/vasedotazy_51.htm ) (now: until 5/47). According to this page http://www.fronta.cz/lt-vz-38 they were designated post-war as LT-38/37 (for gun caliber), also a book on Czech AFVs confirms LT vz.38/37.

273 M5A1 Stuart - it's doubtful, that coaxial MG would be changed to Soviet one - IMHO it should be #67 Browning. (It would be ideal to create also .30 BMG and AAMG, but I understand this is a waste of slots?...)

274 Cromwell - According to http://vojenstvi.cz/verteneverte-2007.htm , they were stored until 1959 (now it's 55).

BTW: correct designation of weapons #29-30 7.9mm vz.35 CMG/BMG should be vz.37, at least in tanks like LT-38. Maybe it would be better to rename it as generic "7.9mm CMG/BMG", so that they cover vz.37, Besa and German ones?..

275 Challenger - picture shows Charioteer (I proposed picture of Challenger in other thread). Used - as above (although they were less numerous and might not survive as long, as Cromwell).

276, 286 Cromwell Mk.VI - according to a Polish book on Cromwells, HEAT round for 95mm howitzer was only experimental - it should be checked. If it's named Cromwell Mk.VI, maybe units 274 and 284 should be called Mk.IV?

300 Rifle Section - pic 11000 is empty(?) - proper is 23062.

Regards
Michal