Czech OOB 5.5

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Hope this will help...
OT-90M1 video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9uSO...eature=related

OT-90M2 video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkv5p...eature=related

OT-90 "Tank Day" video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRKSE...eature=related

Other sites...
Third picture down right, Scroll & See...
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1022.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/forum...pic.php?t=1000
http://rangerneil.com/Military_Vehicles/OT90_index.html

Sounds like a couple of people can verify the authenticity. Though on the "other sites" the Czech markings are clear.

I believe the turret to look similiar to the one mounted on the SKOT-64(?).

Regards,
Pat

[Pibwl]

Nice films.

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

OT-90M2 video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkv5p...eature=related

..however in my opinion this is normal OT-90 (or OT-90M1 - version with slight changes) - a turret on this bad quality clip looks smooth, while OT-90M2 should have additional armour of flat plates welded to turret. It all suggests, that OT-90 should have turret armour 2/1/1 in the game, and there is no confirmation, if better armoured variant M2 existed in any significant number. A Polish article from the 1990s claimed, that all were modified this way - but this was apparently too optimistic...

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

I believe the turret to look similiar to the one mounted on the SKOT-64(?).

Right, they were combined from surplus BVP-1 (BMP-1) and withdrawn SKOTs.

As for IS-2 - right, I haven't looked far enough in the oob at that stage to discover it.

Regard
Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

As for IS-2 - right, I haven't looked far enough in the oob at that stage to discover it.

Regard
Michal

.......and 15 seconds with the database check utility looking at the vehicles listed in that unit class would have given you the answer instead of ASSUMING it doesn't exist and we need to add it. Even a quick search for "IS" with "find" would have found it in three tries !

If you want to report errors that's fine, but do me the courtesy of at least checking the entire OOB THEN your own work before posting it.

Thank You.

Don

[Pibwl]

It was an accident, for I haven't seen IS-2 in a group of Soviet-origin tanks in a beginning of list.

I promise I'll check database before proposing new units next time

Maybe I'll finish what I have - although I think, I won't be fiddling with infantry platoons?... (there is quite complete history of infantry/MR platoon structures in Czech Internet, but it would demand creation of several new formations - which I can, of course, propose)

74 Strela-2 Team - http://forum.presscont.eu/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=208 confirms information, that they appeared in CS from 1973 (now: 1/67). Might need change in formations' dates, for it is the only Infantry SAM (although now it appears is some units, that start at earlier date).

Strelas however weren't used in rifle nor MR platoons, which structures are described in Internet in detail. In bigger numbers, they became armament of AA platoons in motor rifle battalions, created only in beginning of 1980s (such platoon consisted of 3 APC, each with 2 Strela teams - http://forum.csla.cz/forums/thread/10.aspx )

82 M52 85mm ATG - proper pic is 25009 (this gun in Austrian service)

265 OT-64A SKOT - according to a book on OT-64, serial production in significant numbers started only in 8/64 and it was officially accepted only in May 1965. Therefore, earliest starting date should be around 1/65 (now: 1/64) (would need date change in formations). It had no fixed armament, only LMGs of troops' firing through open upper hatches.

272 LT-38G - in the Czechoslovak service it was just LT-38, without German variant letters. They were in inventory at least until 1949 (http://vojenstvi.cz/vasedotazy_51.htm ) (now: until 5/47). According to this page http://www.fronta.cz/lt-vz-38 they were designated post-war as LT-38/37 (for gun caliber), also a book on Czech AFVs confirms LT vz.38/37.

273 M5A1 Stuart - it's doubtful, that coaxial MG would be changed to Soviet one - IMHO it should be #67 Browning. (It would be ideal to create also .30 BMG and AAMG, but I understand this is a waste of slots?...)

274 Cromwell - According to http://vojenstvi.cz/verteneverte-2007.htm , they were stored until 1959 (now it's 55).

BTW: correct designation of weapons #29-30 7.9mm vz.35 CMG/BMG should be vz.37, at least in tanks like LT-38. Maybe it would be better to rename it as generic "7.9mm CMG/BMG", so that they cover vz.37, Besa and German ones?..

275 Challenger - picture shows Charioteer (I proposed picture of Challenger in other thread). Used - as above (although they were less numerous and might not survive as long, as Cromwell).

276, 286 Cromwell Mk.VI - according to a Polish book on Cromwells, HEAT round for 95mm howitzer was only experimental - it should be checked. If it's named Cromwell Mk.VI, maybe units 274 and 284 should be called Mk.IV?

300 Rifle Section - pic 11000 is empty(?) - proper is 23062.

Regards
Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

300 Rifle Section - pic 11000 is empty(?) - proper is 23062.

Regards
Michal

NO, pic 11000 is the correct number, it just never made it to the last patch file but has now.

Don

[Pibwl]

Further commenst - more or less useful...

350 Maxim HMG [2] - better picture IMHO is 29409 (current one shows unknown soldiers, rather not Czechoslovak ones, and obscured MG).

368 M52 85mm ATG - proper pic is 25009 (in Austrian service). Original Czech designation was vz.52.

373 SPG-82 RCL - there is no sign in Czech Internet, especially here http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/36231 that they were ever used in Czechoslovakia. Knowing the Czech practice, it would be strange to buy it, while developing their own T21 Tarasnice. In any case, it was accepted for the Soviet Army only in 1950 (http://weapon.at.ua/load/220-1-0-847 and others), so it couldn't be used earlier here. It would need change or removal of formation #83 (it's the only unit in this class). I'll attach later a proper picture for SPG-82.

376, 377 M59 RCL HE, M59 Recoilless - much better picture is of the Soviet B-11 11068 or 29397 (it was always supported on two big wheels). Or I'll attach a proper picture.

(BTW: picture 11068 doesn't look much like 107 mm B-11, much better is 29397, currently unused - for all countries, including Russia)

378 RPG-2 Team - there is no sign in Czech Internet, especially here http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/36231 that they were ever used in Czechoslovakia. They developed own P-27 instead.

380 57mm AA-Gun - like comments on unit #89 (first date 1/50 is doubtful, since a production in the USSR started that year. I've only found info on rearming one unit in 1960. It isn't mentioned among AA armament on Czech MoD page now. Maybe better name would be 57mm S60 AA-Gun or 57mm S-60 AAG?)

389 etc Para scouts:
Like comments on para sections. According to one comment on http://en.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/11593 , early paratroops used
StG-44 (#12, pic 23062). I believe, that if not StG-44, then scouts were rather given PPS-43 or MP-40 SMG rather than rifles. From early 50s, paratroops were for sure given Sa 26 SMG (lbm 37103). There are no signs of RPG-2 usage (maybe Panzerfaust instead?). There are also no signs of AK-47 usage in Czechoslovakia.

401 BA-64 - according to a Russian book on GAZ-67-based vehicles, only 10 BA-64 were used in the Czechoslovak corps during the war (and no mention on further sales). No mention on this car also here http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/36231

It might be replaced with Humber LRC III with similar icon and specs. Armed as built in Bren and Boys AT-rifle, equipped with a reloadable smoke mortar, available from 1/46 to some 1950s, speed 97 km/h. I'll attach a picture (same unit I've proposed for Egypt).

402 OT-810 - produced only since 1959. Carry was only 111, speed=20 (60 km/h - stronger engine, than SdKfz-251), armament - 7.62mm vz.59 AAMG (definitely not 12.7 mm one) (http://en.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/3...tle/CZK-OT-810 ). Top was fully armoured (icon is correct here) - unless, of course, gunner's hatch is open. Also known as OT-810 HaKo or HAKO (Hanomag Koprivnice).

Proposed unit: HKL6p or OPp3N HKL6p or HKL6p HAKL (last is unofficial name) - original German SdKfz-251 APC, used from 1/46 until about 1960 (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/11469 ). Eg. unit 168 from Spanish oob (but carry = 110-111)

There was also used Sdkfz-250 as D-7p, but in unknown quantities (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/18782 ).

403 ST-1 Hetzer - according to a book "in Czechoslovak army's service the Rundumfeur machine gun was deleted". Original designation's way of writing was ST-I (I doubt, if the name Hetzer was used - or is it only for easier identification?).

Regards,
Michal

[Pibwl]

Correction: I don't know how numerous was in fact Humber LRC III - at least one existed after the war, but it might have been not numerous car.

I have no information on White Scout Car (unit 400) in Czechoslovak Army, and it isn't mentioned on the quoted page http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/36231

On the other hand, quite popular in the Czechoslovak army until mid-50s was Humber Scout Car. They also used some number of M5A1 halftracks and Bren carriers.

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

404 BPzV Svatava - it was produced from 1988 (now: 1/98). According to http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/18501 , withdrawn in 2009 (now: 12/120). Missiles should be #145 Malutka, like in normal BMP-1/BVP-1 (semi-automatic Malutka-P wasn't fired from BMP launcher - it could be theoretically used, but in manual mode, without increased accuracy). It had 6-tube SD (now: SD:3)

It was an armoured reconnaissance vehicle - formations 96, 97 Support APC should be IMO renamed according to real role of the vehicle (and dates should be changed according to BPzV). It's worth IMO to add also Scouts, carried by these vehicles.

405, 406 MT-LB/120 - the Czechoslovak Army didn't use any SP-mortars before PRAM #418.

407 BRM-1 - precisely, BRM-1K. It was a recce vehicle, and carried only 3 crew + 3 (or 2+4). It should have GSR, laser RF and 6-tube SD. According to Russian sources, speed was like normal BMP-1 (65 km/h, now 24) and it carried only 20 rounds of ammunition. Better icon would be BMP-2 due to bigger two-men turret.

410 BTR-40 - I've found no signs suggesting, that BTR-40 served in Czechoslovakia, and it isn't mentioned here http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/36231

411 BRDM-1 - 12.7 mm MG was very rare on BRDM-1 (if used at all) - see comments for unit #51, also for a period of usage.

412 BRDM-2 - there's no evidence of BRDM-2 used in CS, apart from NBC recce variant - see comments for unit #53.

414 IS-IIm1944 - name should be changed just to IS-II or rather IS-2 (see http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/1120 , m1944 is modern designation) - especially, that we have no other IS-2 variants.

416 Praga M53/59 - name could be changed to M53/59 Jesterka (popular name, meaning Lizard) or official PLDvK vz.53/59 (but it doesn't have to be changed).

417 2S4 24cm SPM - name is 2S4 Tulpan. The page http://vojenstvi.cz/vasedotazy_81.htm (no.1202) suggests it was used until 1993 (now it's 91). Used from 1984, but I don't know when exactly (now: 1/85).

419 T-40/75N (PzKfw-IV) - used only from 1948, after repairs (now: 1/46) (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/...-cudzich-armad ). Used until 1956, stored until 1959 (other "obsolete tank" class T-40/75N might be created). There's no evidence, that they carried hull side skirts, on photos they are only on turrets.

422 Praga M53/59M - see #416

425 Lisunov 2 - proper name Lisunov Li-2 or just Li-2

430 BTR-40 AOP - as 410. No signs of its usage.

I proposed earlier to create actually used AOP version of OT-65.

433, 434 UAZ-69 Schmel - only 1 was delivered to Czechoslovakia for tests, in 1964 (http://toulky.vojenstvi.cz/foto_index.php?fid=569) or 62/63. To be removed IMO. (formation #82 should be changed according to notes on unit #33).

491 OT-810D - both basic OT-810 and vz.59 gun were introduced only in 1959, so it's earliest possible date (now: 1/54). It also had 7.62mm vz.59 AAMG and ranging MG for a gun. Ammunition for 82mm gun was 30, speed was 20 (60 km/h) (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/18793 )

541 M77 Dana - Dana has 12.7 DShK AAMG, not NSV. It can carry 60 artillery rounds. According to http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/12305 , first introduced to units in 1980 (now: 1/77)

542 Komsolets - as I've mentioned in other place, it should be changed to some other tractor, for example Ja-12.

Specifications would be similar, speed up to 38 km/h, picture - 29395, some trucklike icon, used until 1954 (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/17698 ).

In around 1960-75? Czechoslovakia used also Polish D-530 Mazur tractor: http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/19582 . Specifications would be similar, speed up to 53 km/h, picture - 29390, some trucklike icon.

Czechoslovakia used also several types of ex-German SdKfz tractors.


Regards
Michal

[PN79]

Greetings
- MiG-21PFM - RS-2US -- When it comes to it I can only confirm that there was training with them against ground targets - I don't know if it was planned to use them in combat.
- OT-90M2 - Although there are several sources claiming of having this variant, I have seen only one photo to this date.

and for artillery:
- there should be 100mm vz.53 gun in list of off-map artillery - although it was primarily ATG it was dual purpose weapon like 85mm vz.52
- 122mm M30 howitzer survived atleast till 1990 - not enough D-30 to replace it completely
- btw. 203mm - we had only 2S7 Pion from around 1985 to early 1990s

[DRG]

Originally Posted by PN79

for artillery:
- there should be 100mm vz.53 gun in list of off-map artillery - although it was primarily ATG it was dual purpose weapon like

THERE ALREADY IS ONE.

Please explain why you wrote this when that weapon in that configuation already exists as unit 369.

???

]

Originally Posted by PN79

for artillery:
- btw. 203mm - we had only 2S7 Pion from around 1985 to early 1990s

..and that has already been mentioned in this thread as well. I have quite enough to do with out tracking down duplicate information so if you are going to post to this thread at least read it and check the OOB first please.

Thank you.

Don