Hungarian OOB 5.5

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

Do I assume from this that you have finished with the Polish OOB ??

Don

Noo... it was meant to be short break, but I started to dig more thoroughly, than I had planned. I'll finish this one today or tomorrow, I promise.

As you see, Polish OOB is a lot of units ...and a lot of work.

Michal

[Pibwl]

114 Mi-1 - correct pic is 9120 (now: Mi-2). Max speed was only 185km/h (61, now: 76).

116 Mi-4 - standard armament was 12.7 TKB MG in underbelly station, not 7.62. Normal load is 12 men, max 16 (unit 312 in Russian oob has 116) (now: 112).

117 Mi-8P - Mi-8P is in fact Russian designation of a civilian (Passenger) version - transport one is Mi-8T.
As a standard, Mi-8 didn't carry any MG, especially 12.7mm. I don't think that the Hungarians were an exception (the Soviets in Afghanistan fitted 7.62mm, but more often to Mi-17). On several recent photos of Hungarian Mi-8 and Mi-17 that I've spotted in the net, there's no forward MG, nor its round mounting visible in a cab's front.

If it was armed with 57mm rockets, it carried as a standard 64 (4x16) - now it has 32. But there should be also plain unarmed transport variant created, more commonly used.
Armed icon is 86 or 1910.

118 Mi-17 - if it was armed with MG (see above), it would be 7.62mm. I don't know, if the Hungarian ones were armed. Mi-17 carried as a standard 192 rockets (6x32) - now it has 64.

I've just found such Hungarian document http://www.szrfk.hu/rtk/kulonszamok/...osz_zoltan.pdf in which there are numbers of rockets 64 and 192 confirmed, and MGs aren't visible on (scarce, but interesting) photos. An here http://repulomuzeum.hu/ARCHFOTO/Mi-8.htm are several pre-1990 photos.

122, 123, 130 Mi-8T/ Falanga, Mi-8TB - I have no sources, but these Falanga-armed Mi-8s are quite doubtful in Hungarian service. Antitank Mi-8 wasn't a common variant, and there are no such armed helicopters on photos in the net. Also a pdf from a link above doesn't mention such missiles. It might be too vague info to delete these units, but I must point your attention to it - maybe it will be cleared in the future.

124 Mi-24 / Falanga - original name is Mi-24D. It carries as a standard 128 rockets (4x32) plus missiles - now it has 64.

125 Mi-24V / Sturm - rockets as above. Original name is just Mi-24V.

127 Yak-9P Vercse - original Soviet Yak-9P was armed with 3 guns 20 mm Shvak, and had no provisions to carry bombs (I don't know if the Hungarians modified them, but it's doubtful). Hungarian spelling is Jak.

Note: it's difficult to find specific info on Hungarian post-war weapons, that's why in some cases I'm basing upon general knowledge of Soviet equipment and Warsaw pact practice and rationality - it's up to it, if you find it convincing, or just disregard.

131 MiG-15 - MiG-15s didn't carry obsolete RS-82 rockets (for all countries). Could be armed with two bombs 100 kg (they didn't carry other ground attack armament as a standard)

132-134 MiG-17F, PF - MiG-17s didn't carry obsolete RS-82 rockets (for all countries). Armament of #135 of two bombs 250 kg is correct - they didn't carry other ground attack armament as a standard. Usage of rockets is known only for Soviet MiG-17AS ground attack modification (210mm ones).

If we want rocket-armed variant, there is a possibility, that two 16-tube 57mm launchers were adapted to MiG-17 instead of bombs (or drop tanks) in the 70s, but this is pure guess of what could be or could be not.

136 Il-10 Ruszkov - according to Russian Aviakollekcya on Il-10, it had provisions to carry only four missiles RS-82 or RS-132 (now: 4x 2xRS-82). RS-132 were more efficient (weapon 191 in Russian oob), but would be carried with 2 x 100kg bombs rather instead of 4. According to this source, first delivered in 9/49 (now 1/49) and used until late 56 (12/61).

There could be also variant with 2x250kg bombs and without rockets, or with 144 AP bomblets.

137 Avia B-33 - it was the same as Il-10, with same comments.

139, 140 MiG-19PF, SF - Russian sources nor Squadron/Signal MiG-19 In Action monograph doesn't recognize such MiG-19 variants at all. There were P and S, but according to In Action, Hungary wasn't among their users. Hungary used only MiG-19PM, but it was an interceptor, with cannons removed, carrying AA missiles. It could carry only 4 unguided rockets ARS-212M (S-21M, 210 mm) or ARS-160 (S-3K, 160mm), but according to this source, they were rarely used. Delivered from 3/60 only (9/59).

149 MiG-23MF - better picture is 29352 (current is flat-nosed Mig-23B). In addition to 2x500 kg bombs, it could carry also 2x250 kg.

There could be also variant with 128 rockets 57mm (4x32)

150 MiG-29A - no early MiG-29 can carry air-to-ground missiles - only Russian recent export proposals of modernized machines. Typical armament of MiG-29 is 4 bombs 500 kg or 80 rockets 80mm (4x20).

151-154 Su-22 - precisely, Su-22M3

Hungary could also use variant with at least 128 x 57mm S-5 rockets (4x32 tube) (photo with 57mm rockets http://www.airliners.net/photo/Hunga...2M3/1764363/L/ ) or at least 80x 80mm S-8 rockets (4x20) (photo with 80mm rockets
http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=7309186&nseq=0 )

158-160 Avia Il-28 - should be just Il-28, they were acquired from USSR, not Czechoslovak Avia.

Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Noo... it was meant to be short break, but I started to dig more thoroughly, than I had planned. I'll finish this one today or tomorrow, I promise.

As you see, Polish OOB is a lot of units ...and a lot of work.

Michal

OK then, Just an FYI...

I've drawn the line at March 1. Any submission after that is next years work and any submission between March 1 and the release of the next patch should be held back until AFTER the next patch has been released AND REVIEWED because once we start our final checks /tests and game guide write ups I don't bother with the forums all that much as it creates an unwanted distraction.

This release the MBT OOB's contain at the very least, 20,000 data adjustments and I'm being very, very conservative in that estimate so after March 1...take a break ( EVERYBODY HEAR THAT???....... )

....and don't dump 20 pages of changes in my lap Feb 29

....and if you really want to make me happy draw your own line at Feb 25

However, given the "enthusiasm" this year for error hunting ( my "done" list is 150 pages long and still growing ) and given how much work is still on this years list you might consider giving this a rest sooner than later becasue I'm finding there are more and more things like .....

" FC is 25, while Soviet T-72A has FC 20"

and ..

" ISU-122 - the picture is in fact ISU-152 (thick barrel with a muzzle brake)."

and ..

"52 BRDM-1 - very rarely (if at all) armed with DShK MG - normal armament was just one 7.62mm AAMG (for all countries)."

and..

"030 BRDM-1 Shmel - better picture is 29057 (current one 11031 is 2P32 Falanga). They carried only 6 missiles (3 + 3 reloads - now: 8 - for all countries)."


......were already corrected weeks ago so it's really time to stop and wait to see what's been done already before suggesting any further changes becasue it's just wasting both your time reporting it and my time re-checking it and I have very little time to spare.

OK ?

Don

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

....and if you really want to make me happy draw your own line at Feb 25

However, given the "enthusiasm" this year for error hunting ( my "done" list is 150 pages long and still growing ) and given how much work is still on this years list you might consider giving this a rest sooner than later becasue I'm finding there are more and more things like .....

(cut)

I sure want to make you happy Thank you for all your hard work.
My "enthusiasm" is caused only by the fact, that only last year I've discovered this great game, after some 10-years break from Steel Panthers.

Originally Posted by DRG

......were already corrected weeks ago so it's really time to stop and wait to see what's been done already before suggesting any further changes becasue it's just wasting both your time reporting it and my time re-checking it and I have very little time to spare.

Sorry, I don't know what has been already corrected - I'm just reporting errors or small things to improve in existing 5.5 OOBs. If I understand correctly, it's best to refrain from reporting bugs until release of new OOBs, and then wait for next year with improving, if they still exist?...

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

OK, here's rest

017 T-72M1V - in fact, it seems, that they have Russian designation T-72AV (http://mhrfweb.makett.org/MHRF/index...mid=11&lang=en )
From the end of 1996, Russia gave some 100 tanks T-72 to Hungary as a compensation of debts [source: nTW 9/96] - probably they were these tanks (in 1996 basic M1, without ERA, wouldn't be worth enough to take - AV wouldn't be a wonder anyway). A Hungarian page http://makettinfo.hu/index.php?jobb=...v+magyar&hash= seems to confirm it, although this language is incomprehensible, even for auto translators ;-)

Now it starts at 1/105 - if we make it available earlier, it should probably have some earlier gun type (I don't think, that the Russians gave old tanks with newest tandem Heat). Maybe it should be split in two units - current one with a current gun (I have no idea if they have new ammo in fact), and earlier one from around 10/96.

151 etc Su-22 - Su-22M3 should have laser RF.

174 122mm Section - since usage of 122mm D-30 is unconfirmed, better picture would be Gvozdika 11039 - but maybe it should be used since 1981, as #031 Gvozdika. Also a list in Jane's Armour and Artillery 2005-2006 doesn't mention D-30 in Hungary, only M.1938 howitzer (availability of which might be extended).

BTW: I have no info, if Gvozdikas were really withdrawn in 12/105, as unit 031 Gvozdika states.

176 152mm Section - correct pic of D-1 howitzer is 36139

179 122mm Section - nTW 4/99 doesn't list D-74 among Hugarian armament in 1999. I don't know, if they used them before.

217 PT-54 - proper picture is 29018 or 29024

220 T-72M KMT-5 - proper pic is 29252

221 T-72B1VH KMT-5 - it's not clear, why the Hungarians have mineclearing tank stronger, than MBTs. Probably B variant is a mistake.

As for all dozers and mineclearing tanks - is there a reason to provide them with - most probably fictitious - HE/HEAT only ammo loads?

235 ZIS/ZIL-485 6x6 - at that time it was only ZiL-485. besides, should be named BAV.

Correct picture is 29202 (now it's DUKW). Lift Capacity should be 125 (it had a rear ramp), speed was 65 km/h (22) an 10 km/h on water (3-4). It was produced until 1962 (now it starts at 1969 - I have no info, when it should start). Anyway, it's unlikely, that they survived longer, than end of 80s. (now: 120)

DShK was very rarely seen on these vehicles (I've seen only one photo of East German armed one)

238 PSzH-IV - as #66 (picture etc)


(I have to go now - there'll will be one more part)

Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

As for all dozers and mine clearing tanks - is there a reason to provide them with - most probably fictitious - HE/HEAT only ammo loads?

Yes, there is a reason. ( it should be obvious....)

They were treated as offshoots of CS tanks right from the beginning so have ammo loads designed to deal with infantry that would be directly behind the minefields and wire rather than carry regular tank AT loads. They usually have have HEAT rounds as well as HE because HEAT can be used against soft and hard targets

I'm less rigid about that "rule" now than others were in the past but that does not mean I plan to go out of my way to change existing ones either. We've had zero "complaints" I can recall and now one (1) comment so I guess it's accepted by most.


Don

[Pibwl]

To finish T-72 issue (at present state of knowledge):

From what I understood from a page http://makettinfo.hu/index.php?jobb=...v+magyar&hash= using auto-translator, it seems, that:

- first 30 T-72 were delivered in 1978 (now unit #14 starts at 1/76). Definitely not numerous (now radio 82)
Unit #14 has FC=10, while Soviet T-72 Ural has FC=15. This model had simple FCS, so maybe the Soviets didn't simplify it more (Russian author M. Baryatynski wrote, that basic T-72 for Warsaw Pact "almost" didn't differ from Soviet ones, for other countries differed mostly in armour and NBC protection). No SD apart from fuel injected to exhaust.

- from early 80s there were bought T-72M with laser RF, produced in Poland and Czechoslovakia. First shown in 1985, so maybe 1984 will be a good starting date (their production in these countries started no earlier, than some 1982). Now unit #15 starts at 1/80. No SD.

- from second half of 80s there were delivered T-72M with SD (might be omitted)

- from late 80s there were introduced T-72M1 (I've guessed 1988-89). It should have more SD (12 tubes).

- from 1996 there were delivered more tanks from Belorussia(?), but it seems, that most of them have only provisions for mounting ERA, and were not actually fitted with them (photo 30 on the page). Most probably they are regular T-72A/M1 or AV with removed ERA.

- as for tanks with ERA, photo SDC10157 here http://mhrfweb.makett.org/MHRF/index...mid=11&lang=en and 48 here http://makettinfo.hu/index.php?jobb=...v+magyar&hash= and the info on the quoted page suggest, that this is actually T-72B with "Super Dolly Parton" armour, although they are known there as AV(!), but there is few of these tanks (4?)

By the way, I don't know, if the Hungarians used BTR-80 APC before Russian deliveries from 1996 - it could be verified in the future.

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

303 Scouts - better pic of non-Mosin rifle is 23509 (used by unit #300 for a rifle 43/M)

310, 311, 316, 317, 359 Rifle Section, 312 Scouts - proper pic of Mosin-family rifle is 11098

357 Maxim HMG [2] - better picture is 29409 or 29178

373 SPG-82 RCL - picture should be changed to correct one (I've proposed new picture in other post). (I have no idea, if they used this unpopular weapon).

376 B10 Recoilless - as #68 - realistic date is 1/55 (now 1/50)

388 Yak-9B (spotter) - maybe Yak-9M or P (Yak-9B was sparse Soviet fighter-bomber variant). Hungarian spelling is Jak.

398 GAZ-46 MAV - it should be small 5-seater amphibious jeep, equivalent of Ford GPA, not MG-armed 3+6 crew vehicle - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAZ_46 . Picture shows probably some prototype of some other, bigger vehicle (also used in Polish OOB as MAV).
Available in OOB in 69-120 - but it's somewhat doubtful, if the Hungarians started to use it 11 years after production's end (1958 according to the Russian Wikipedia), and it's unbelievable to use it until now. 1/58-12/79, max. 89 would be more probable estimation. Speed was 90 km/h.

403, 404 BRM-1 - seems, that this is in fact ordinary BMP-1 lacking Malutka, not BRM-1K (special scout vehicle from the 80s, which, according to nTW-1/01, was delivered only to Poland, CS and NVA). Therefore, it should have picture 11064 of BMP-1 and be named so (assigning BMP-1 to recce tasks doesn't make it BRM). Basic BMP has carry=109, these: 112.

408 BTR-60PB - carry capacity was in fact only 8 (+commander) (now 112).

411 BRDM-1 - DShK was rather not used, typical was one 7.62mm MG.

414 IS-IIm1944 - better name is just IS-2 (especially, that no other models of IS-2 are used). Ammo was distributed more evenly (if not more HE, than AP).

421 Luchs A3 - it isn't known to be used (now: from 1/110)

422 Mercedes Atlas - an existence of such vehicle, armed with Mistral and DShK in addition, should be verified. There are known Mistral launcher carriers on Unimog trucks in the Hun. Army.

424 Mistral Team - according to an article in nTW 6/2011, only twin Atlas Mistral launchers are used, and after withdrawal of Igla in 2011, Hunagry remained without MANPADS at all.

425 VBL Igla - existence of such vehicle should be verified. There are known only GAZ-66 Lama vehicles - simple twin Igla-1E launchers on GAZ-66 truck (unarmoured), with no MG (I have no info on number of reloads, which should be 2-4). Possible icon 76. It doesn't seem to have TI, nor any special night vision devices. Some photos of a model and a real one: http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?...opic_id=155046
Unfortunately, I have no sure starting date - may be assumed some 1990 (Igla missiles were bought in 1986), withdrawn in 4/2011. In an article on Hungarian Iglas [source nTW 6/2011] there's no mention on VBL launcher.

426 Strela-3 Team - in fact, should be changed to Igla-1E - used in Hungary from 1986, last ones fired in 4/2011 [source: article in nTW-6/2011, by Hungarian author]. Despite some Western sources mention Strela-3 in Hungary instead of Igla, but there is no mention on Strela-3 in a quoted article, devoted to last firings of Igla. After 2011, Hungary remained without MANPADS.

433 UAZ-469 Shmel - starting date at 1/60 is rather impossible, since only in 8/60 it was commissioned in the USSR, and then its production started. Realistic date is 63, as of unit #434. Besides, it should be GAZ-69, not UAZ-469.

436, 437 Reserve Section - proper pic of Mosin-family rifle is 11098

480 Malutka ATGM - there shouldn't be RPG-7

494 Malutka 2 - as #98

503 152mm Battery - correct pic of D-1 howitzer is 36139

542 Komsolets - should be replaced with Ja-12 tractor.

The Hungarians also used during the war 37M Hansa-Loyd - a copy of SdKfz-11 (I don't know if it was used post-war, but it could be)

590 43/M Turan 75h - as far as it is known, Turan 75h (Turan III) with long gun remained a single prototype from 1943. The sources usually focus on Hungarian tank production before 1945, but it is doubtful, if their production lasted after the war...

613 BTR-80A - 25 vehicles were present already in early 1999 - I don't known when delivered (now 1/100) [source nTW 4/99]

903 Su-22 - precisely, Su-22M3. It could carry only 6 S-24 rockets, one under each main pod (now: 9)

905 MiG-29A - even 80 rockets S-8 can be carried in 4 launchers (now: 40)

920 Mi-24 Hind - should be Mi-24D - but 80mm rockets were introduced only in early 80s, especially to client states.

924 Mi-24 Hind - existence of alleged 57mm guided rockets should be verified, especially concerning their low calibre and lousy efficiency.

To be added:
MaxxPro from 12/10 (Polish article http://www.altair.com.pl/start-5735)

Mi-24P (with 30mm gun) - several used from around 1996 (German gift)

That's all, unless I find some new info.

Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Your reports are just a part of the overall list I've been working from which is why I said "given the "enthusiasm" this year for error hunting ". It extends considerably beyond you.

Sorry, I don't know what has been already corrected - I'm just reporting errors or small things to improve in existing 5.5 OOBs. If I understand correctly, it's best to refrain from reporting bugs until release of new OOBs, and then wait for next year with improving, if they still exist?...

Regards
Michal

I KNOW you don't know what has already been corrected. That's why I'm telling you this but you know what you have already reported.

When I get reports like a FC system should be 20 instead of 25 for a specific model tank I change it the first time it was reported in all nations using that model but these last weeks I'm finding more and more things being reported that have already been fixed including "suggestions" for photo changes that had been upgraded weeks ago like reports that say " for all nations" and " as I wrote in other place"

That is not to suggest that there are not any new items on these latests lists, there are and they are being corrected. However, what I'm finding is more and more things already done, more than say, 6 weeks ago.


Don