Hungarian OOB 5.5

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Noo... it was meant to be short break, but I started to dig more thoroughly, than I had planned. I'll finish this one today or tomorrow, I promise.

As you see, Polish OOB is a lot of units ...and a lot of work.

Michal

OK then, Just an FYI...

I've drawn the line at March 1. Any submission after that is next years work and any submission between March 1 and the release of the next patch should be held back until AFTER the next patch has been released AND REVIEWED because once we start our final checks /tests and game guide write ups I don't bother with the forums all that much as it creates an unwanted distraction.

This release the MBT OOB's contain at the very least, 20,000 data adjustments and I'm being very, very conservative in that estimate so after March 1...take a break ( EVERYBODY HEAR THAT???....... )

....and don't dump 20 pages of changes in my lap Feb 29

....and if you really want to make me happy draw your own line at Feb 25

However, given the "enthusiasm" this year for error hunting ( my "done" list is 150 pages long and still growing ) and given how much work is still on this years list you might consider giving this a rest sooner than later becasue I'm finding there are more and more things like .....

" FC is 25, while Soviet T-72A has FC 20"

and ..

" ISU-122 - the picture is in fact ISU-152 (thick barrel with a muzzle brake)."

and ..

"52 BRDM-1 - very rarely (if at all) armed with DShK MG - normal armament was just one 7.62mm AAMG (for all countries)."

and..

"030 BRDM-1 Shmel - better picture is 29057 (current one 11031 is 2P32 Falanga). They carried only 6 missiles (3 + 3 reloads - now: 8 - for all countries)."


......were already corrected weeks ago so it's really time to stop and wait to see what's been done already before suggesting any further changes becasue it's just wasting both your time reporting it and my time re-checking it and I have very little time to spare.

OK ?

Don

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

....and if you really want to make me happy draw your own line at Feb 25

However, given the "enthusiasm" this year for error hunting ( my "done" list is 150 pages long and still growing ) and given how much work is still on this years list you might consider giving this a rest sooner than later becasue I'm finding there are more and more things like .....

(cut)

I sure want to make you happy Thank you for all your hard work.
My "enthusiasm" is caused only by the fact, that only last year I've discovered this great game, after some 10-years break from Steel Panthers.

Originally Posted by DRG

......were already corrected weeks ago so it's really time to stop and wait to see what's been done already before suggesting any further changes becasue it's just wasting both your time reporting it and my time re-checking it and I have very little time to spare.

Sorry, I don't know what has been already corrected - I'm just reporting errors or small things to improve in existing 5.5 OOBs. If I understand correctly, it's best to refrain from reporting bugs until release of new OOBs, and then wait for next year with improving, if they still exist?...

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

OK, here's rest

017 T-72M1V - in fact, it seems, that they have Russian designation T-72AV (http://mhrfweb.makett.org/MHRF/index...mid=11&lang=en )
From the end of 1996, Russia gave some 100 tanks T-72 to Hungary as a compensation of debts [source: nTW 9/96] - probably they were these tanks (in 1996 basic M1, without ERA, wouldn't be worth enough to take - AV wouldn't be a wonder anyway). A Hungarian page http://makettinfo.hu/index.php?jobb=...v+magyar&hash= seems to confirm it, although this language is incomprehensible, even for auto translators ;-)

Now it starts at 1/105 - if we make it available earlier, it should probably have some earlier gun type (I don't think, that the Russians gave old tanks with newest tandem Heat). Maybe it should be split in two units - current one with a current gun (I have no idea if they have new ammo in fact), and earlier one from around 10/96.

151 etc Su-22 - Su-22M3 should have laser RF.

174 122mm Section - since usage of 122mm D-30 is unconfirmed, better picture would be Gvozdika 11039 - but maybe it should be used since 1981, as #031 Gvozdika. Also a list in Jane's Armour and Artillery 2005-2006 doesn't mention D-30 in Hungary, only M.1938 howitzer (availability of which might be extended).

BTW: I have no info, if Gvozdikas were really withdrawn in 12/105, as unit 031 Gvozdika states.

176 152mm Section - correct pic of D-1 howitzer is 36139

179 122mm Section - nTW 4/99 doesn't list D-74 among Hugarian armament in 1999. I don't know, if they used them before.

217 PT-54 - proper picture is 29018 or 29024

220 T-72M KMT-5 - proper pic is 29252

221 T-72B1VH KMT-5 - it's not clear, why the Hungarians have mineclearing tank stronger, than MBTs. Probably B variant is a mistake.

As for all dozers and mineclearing tanks - is there a reason to provide them with - most probably fictitious - HE/HEAT only ammo loads?

235 ZIS/ZIL-485 6x6 - at that time it was only ZiL-485. besides, should be named BAV.

Correct picture is 29202 (now it's DUKW). Lift Capacity should be 125 (it had a rear ramp), speed was 65 km/h (22) an 10 km/h on water (3-4). It was produced until 1962 (now it starts at 1969 - I have no info, when it should start). Anyway, it's unlikely, that they survived longer, than end of 80s. (now: 120)

DShK was very rarely seen on these vehicles (I've seen only one photo of East German armed one)

238 PSzH-IV - as #66 (picture etc)


(I have to go now - there'll will be one more part)

Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

As for all dozers and mine clearing tanks - is there a reason to provide them with - most probably fictitious - HE/HEAT only ammo loads?

Yes, there is a reason. ( it should be obvious....)

They were treated as offshoots of CS tanks right from the beginning so have ammo loads designed to deal with infantry that would be directly behind the minefields and wire rather than carry regular tank AT loads. They usually have have HEAT rounds as well as HE because HEAT can be used against soft and hard targets

I'm less rigid about that "rule" now than others were in the past but that does not mean I plan to go out of my way to change existing ones either. We've had zero "complaints" I can recall and now one (1) comment so I guess it's accepted by most.


Don

[Pibwl]

To finish T-72 issue (at present state of knowledge):

From what I understood from a page http://makettinfo.hu/index.php?jobb=...v+magyar&hash= using auto-translator, it seems, that:

- first 30 T-72 were delivered in 1978 (now unit #14 starts at 1/76). Definitely not numerous (now radio 82)
Unit #14 has FC=10, while Soviet T-72 Ural has FC=15. This model had simple FCS, so maybe the Soviets didn't simplify it more (Russian author M. Baryatynski wrote, that basic T-72 for Warsaw Pact "almost" didn't differ from Soviet ones, for other countries differed mostly in armour and NBC protection). No SD apart from fuel injected to exhaust.

- from early 80s there were bought T-72M with laser RF, produced in Poland and Czechoslovakia. First shown in 1985, so maybe 1984 will be a good starting date (their production in these countries started no earlier, than some 1982). Now unit #15 starts at 1/80. No SD.

- from second half of 80s there were delivered T-72M with SD (might be omitted)

- from late 80s there were introduced T-72M1 (I've guessed 1988-89). It should have more SD (12 tubes).

- from 1996 there were delivered more tanks from Belorussia(?), but it seems, that most of them have only provisions for mounting ERA, and were not actually fitted with them (photo 30 on the page). Most probably they are regular T-72A/M1 or AV with removed ERA.

- as for tanks with ERA, photo SDC10157 here http://mhrfweb.makett.org/MHRF/index...mid=11&lang=en and 48 here http://makettinfo.hu/index.php?jobb=...v+magyar&hash= and the info on the quoted page suggest, that this is actually T-72B with "Super Dolly Parton" armour, although they are known there as AV(!), but there is few of these tanks (4?)

By the way, I don't know, if the Hungarians used BTR-80 APC before Russian deliveries from 1996 - it could be verified in the future.

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

303 Scouts - better pic of non-Mosin rifle is 23509 (used by unit #300 for a rifle 43/M)

310, 311, 316, 317, 359 Rifle Section, 312 Scouts - proper pic of Mosin-family rifle is 11098

357 Maxim HMG [2] - better picture is 29409 or 29178

373 SPG-82 RCL - picture should be changed to correct one (I've proposed new picture in other post). (I have no idea, if they used this unpopular weapon).

376 B10 Recoilless - as #68 - realistic date is 1/55 (now 1/50)

388 Yak-9B (spotter) - maybe Yak-9M or P (Yak-9B was sparse Soviet fighter-bomber variant). Hungarian spelling is Jak.

398 GAZ-46 MAV - it should be small 5-seater amphibious jeep, equivalent of Ford GPA, not MG-armed 3+6 crew vehicle - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAZ_46 . Picture shows probably some prototype of some other, bigger vehicle (also used in Polish OOB as MAV).
Available in OOB in 69-120 - but it's somewhat doubtful, if the Hungarians started to use it 11 years after production's end (1958 according to the Russian Wikipedia), and it's unbelievable to use it until now. 1/58-12/79, max. 89 would be more probable estimation. Speed was 90 km/h.

403, 404 BRM-1 - seems, that this is in fact ordinary BMP-1 lacking Malutka, not BRM-1K (special scout vehicle from the 80s, which, according to nTW-1/01, was delivered only to Poland, CS and NVA). Therefore, it should have picture 11064 of BMP-1 and be named so (assigning BMP-1 to recce tasks doesn't make it BRM). Basic BMP has carry=109, these: 112.

408 BTR-60PB - carry capacity was in fact only 8 (+commander) (now 112).

411 BRDM-1 - DShK was rather not used, typical was one 7.62mm MG.

414 IS-IIm1944 - better name is just IS-2 (especially, that no other models of IS-2 are used). Ammo was distributed more evenly (if not more HE, than AP).

421 Luchs A3 - it isn't known to be used (now: from 1/110)

422 Mercedes Atlas - an existence of such vehicle, armed with Mistral and DShK in addition, should be verified. There are known Mistral launcher carriers on Unimog trucks in the Hun. Army.

424 Mistral Team - according to an article in nTW 6/2011, only twin Atlas Mistral launchers are used, and after withdrawal of Igla in 2011, Hunagry remained without MANPADS at all.

425 VBL Igla - existence of such vehicle should be verified. There are known only GAZ-66 Lama vehicles - simple twin Igla-1E launchers on GAZ-66 truck (unarmoured), with no MG (I have no info on number of reloads, which should be 2-4). Possible icon 76. It doesn't seem to have TI, nor any special night vision devices. Some photos of a model and a real one: http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?...opic_id=155046
Unfortunately, I have no sure starting date - may be assumed some 1990 (Igla missiles were bought in 1986), withdrawn in 4/2011. In an article on Hungarian Iglas [source nTW 6/2011] there's no mention on VBL launcher.

426 Strela-3 Team - in fact, should be changed to Igla-1E - used in Hungary from 1986, last ones fired in 4/2011 [source: article in nTW-6/2011, by Hungarian author]. Despite some Western sources mention Strela-3 in Hungary instead of Igla, but there is no mention on Strela-3 in a quoted article, devoted to last firings of Igla. After 2011, Hungary remained without MANPADS.

433 UAZ-469 Shmel - starting date at 1/60 is rather impossible, since only in 8/60 it was commissioned in the USSR, and then its production started. Realistic date is 63, as of unit #434. Besides, it should be GAZ-69, not UAZ-469.

436, 437 Reserve Section - proper pic of Mosin-family rifle is 11098

480 Malutka ATGM - there shouldn't be RPG-7

494 Malutka 2 - as #98

503 152mm Battery - correct pic of D-1 howitzer is 36139

542 Komsolets - should be replaced with Ja-12 tractor.

The Hungarians also used during the war 37M Hansa-Loyd - a copy of SdKfz-11 (I don't know if it was used post-war, but it could be)

590 43/M Turan 75h - as far as it is known, Turan 75h (Turan III) with long gun remained a single prototype from 1943. The sources usually focus on Hungarian tank production before 1945, but it is doubtful, if their production lasted after the war...

613 BTR-80A - 25 vehicles were present already in early 1999 - I don't known when delivered (now 1/100) [source nTW 4/99]

903 Su-22 - precisely, Su-22M3. It could carry only 6 S-24 rockets, one under each main pod (now: 9)

905 MiG-29A - even 80 rockets S-8 can be carried in 4 launchers (now: 40)

920 Mi-24 Hind - should be Mi-24D - but 80mm rockets were introduced only in early 80s, especially to client states.

924 Mi-24 Hind - existence of alleged 57mm guided rockets should be verified, especially concerning their low calibre and lousy efficiency.

To be added:
MaxxPro from 12/10 (Polish article http://www.altair.com.pl/start-5735)

Mi-24P (with 30mm gun) - several used from around 1996 (German gift)

That's all, unless I find some new info.

Michal

[Pibwl]

After a long time... excuse me digging out things and countries of minor importance (especially needing formation changes), but I've found an article on a modernization of Hungarian army in Polish magazine from 2020. You can ignore it as well, since Hungary wasn't involved in any conflict (although Orban would gladly take a part of Ukraine, if his Russia wins...)

39 2S1 Gvozdika - it shows, that they were withdrawn in 2004, and Hungary remained without SP artillery at all, until an advent of PzH-2000!

Moreover, WWII-era 122 mm howitzers M38 (175 122mm Section) were also gone by that date (no strange), leaving Hungary without units class 155 O/M medium artillery - only 152 mm howitzers D-20 remained (unit 177)

Edit:
Obviously, same for 091 122mm Field Gun (M38 howitzer) and 174 122mm Section (2S1)

64 BMP-1 - this unit is available in 1969-73, but they were delivered from 1973 only (next unit is 032 from 1/74).
Needs no change in formation, since there is BTR-50.

65 BMP-1 - withdrawn in 2007 (stored for some time afterwards), leaving Hungary without tracked APC/IFV, only BTR-80/A, until an advent of Lynx!

403,404 BMP-1 (scout vehicle) - the same - used in 1973-2007 (there is still left UAZ-469 until 125 in this class).
Units 403, 404 as scout vehicles were in fact BRM-1K, bought by Hungary according to the newer article. BRM-1K should have radar (TI/GSR 40), laser RF, photo 11488 and carry capacity 105 at best, like Soviet BRM-1K (in fact it had places for only 2 scouts, but carries unit 303 Scouts in Hungarian OOB, so...)

(BTW: speaking of scout variants of BMP-1, Polish OOB 403 BWR-1S Svatava and Czech OOB 404 BPzV Svatava should also have laser RF)

55 OT-64A - I have no firm info, when (and if) Hungary used OT-64 SKOT. Hungarian Wikipedia doesn't help. Anyway, surely there weren't any in 2007 (now 125).

(BTW: it is strange to me, why 408 BTR-60PB is available until 12/073 only, but I have no info)

Edit: more info as for OT-64 and BTR-60 below

66 PSzH-IV (light APC) - gone by 2020 or before (now 125). Needs change in form. 78, 90, as the only unit of that class

238 PSzH-IV (light support APC) - the same. No formation change needed (remains BTR-80).
(My guess is, that it could have been used also as a scout vehicle).

Edit:
According to Hungarian Internet, especially https://web.archive.org/web/20130609...ncelosok/pszh/, the name was just PSzH (even written as PSZH, despite "Sz" was a short of one word "szállító"), and PSzH-IV was just an export designation. According to the quoted page (of 2006), they were withdrawn "towards the end of the 90s".

By 11/23 Hungary acquired first two NASAMS SAM (from Norwegian OOB) (1/24 as a starting date?)

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Your reports are just a part of the overall list I've been working from which is why I said "given the "enthusiasm" this year for error hunting ". It extends considerably beyond you.

Sorry, I don't know what has been already corrected - I'm just reporting errors or small things to improve in existing 5.5 OOBs. If I understand correctly, it's best to refrain from reporting bugs until release of new OOBs, and then wait for next year with improving, if they still exist?...

Regards
Michal

I KNOW you don't know what has already been corrected. That's why I'm telling you this but you know what you have already reported.

When I get reports like a FC system should be 20 instead of 25 for a specific model tank I change it the first time it was reported in all nations using that model but these last weeks I'm finding more and more things being reported that have already been fixed including "suggestions" for photo changes that had been upgraded weeks ago like reports that say " for all nations" and " as I wrote in other place"

That is not to suggest that there are not any new items on these latests lists, there are and they are being corrected. However, what I'm finding is more and more things already done, more than say, 6 weeks ago.


Don