Polish OOB 5.5

[Pibwl]

O/M artillery

171 155mm Section - fiction. M777 is not used as for now, and not in plans. Class is inappropriate BTW.

174 122mm Section (46-89, A-19) - correct picture is 36142 or 41091. Maybe it should be named "122mm Gun Sec" to differentiate from howitzers? And maybe it should be rather Heavy Artillery? (it was considered long-range gun then).

176 152mm Section (50-64, D-1) - last date should be 12/65 (12/64) to avoid gap before unit #186. But in fact I can see no difference between the two.

177 152mm Section (65-103) - D-20 howitzers weren't used in Poland. It should have ML-20 Gun-How, used from 1950 (in 3-gun unit) until late 1990s. Picture eg. 36141 or 29401 or 32015
Maybe it should be named 152mm Gun Sec.

ML-20 weapon (eg. weapon #239 from Czech OOB) could replace one of identical weapons #114 or #240 D-1 (and all D-1 units in the game should use a remaining one). Weapon #111 D-20 is used for Dana Sp-howitzer.

178 155mm Section+ - fiction. Not used as for now, and no firm plans.

180 100mm Support - Polish ships with 100mm guns were used only from 7/47 until 1967 (until a damage of the destroyer Blyskawica's machinery). Before 1947 there were no ships with real naval guns available (not counting allies). It would demand change in formations, if we want to correct it.

181 130mm Support - Polish ships with 130mm guns existed only between 1958-1986 (now: 46-120).

182 76mm Support - ships with 76mm gun are used from 1/84 only (1/70) - and only single naval guns are available after 2003.

186 152mm Section (66-99, D-1) - used until early 90s only (say, 1992 - now: 12/99) [not present in Polish Military Equipment book from 1998]

190 122mm Section (66-103, M30) - A photo of Polish late M30 howitzer is 29285 (with new tyres).

Rest later.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Artillery - rest

500 76mm Battery - armament should be ordinary #122 76.2mm ZiS-3 FG. Current #241 76mm L51 obr36 was pre-war Soviet gun F-22, not used by Poland (this weapon is useless).

502 152mm Battery (46-49, D-1) - D-1 howitzers were used only from early 1950s [according to J. Kajetanowicz's book]. It should be changed to 152mm ML-20 gun-howitzers, used from 1946 (as my comments on unit #177)

541 M77 Dana - should be named just Dana, eventually Dana wz.77, but it's worse option (M77 is Western designation, in Poland it is designated "SP-gun-howitzer wz.77" - 1977 Pattern, but "wz.77" doesn't make much sense alone).

Dana's gun isn't D-20 - weapon #111 should be renamed to wz.77 or M.77 Howitzer. According to Polish and Czech sources, range is 18,7 km, using extended range ammo - 20 km (now range 214).

547 M77 Dana+ - name as #541. Is AP meant to be cluster munition? In fact, it doesn't use any - and won't be in predictable future (the only cluster rounds commissioned so far are for 122mm rockets and 98mm mortars)

552 2S1 Gozdzik - apart from a cool camo (applied from mid-90s, not 105), the only difference from unit #39 is radio 91 - it should have 90 as well - it'll remain basic Polish SP-gun until 120. There shouldn't be AAMG. I suggest to make a border between these units at 94/95 years.

759 Krab Platoon - the first three-gun Krab platoon was made possible from mid-2010 (third gun made). There's a hope, that by 2013 there'll be another three at last... Radio code should be 3 IMO. There's no AP ammo as for now.

760 2S7 Platoon - used from 1986 until spring of 2006 [Poligon nr 06/2009] (now: 1/87-12/120) (- like comments for unit #38). Radio code should be 1 or 3 (8 guns only).

761 M77 Platoon - name should be Dana Platoon.

762 M77 Platoon+ - as unit #547 - no AP bomblet ammo.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Rest, in order of appearance:

199 Concrete Bunker (80-120) - well... B11 recoilless guns weren't used that long, and I can't imagine firing a recoilless gun from a closed bunker. Might be replaced with #231 85mm gun, as in unit 198. There was no 40mm AGL used - might be replaced with second MG or 40mm PALLAD-D #124. But in fact, there were no gun-armed fortifications used in Poland after the war...

200 Hibernyt SPAA - correct name is "Hibneryt". Used from 1986 at least (from photos in military press) (now 1/92). Maybe FC and RF should be higher - basic ZU-23-2 gun (unit 88) has FC 5, RF 3 (this one: 2/1).

There should be added new SP-AAgun Hibernyt-P - from 2008, with lightly armoured cab, platform (lower sides of gun mounting from sides and rear) and gun's front plate. Maybe armour 1/1/1/ 1/0/0/ 0 ?

201 LSPZRA Sopel - SP-AAgun - prototype only from mid-90s, abandoned.

202 ZSU-4MP Biala - correct designation is ZSU-23-4MP Biala. Fire control should be possibly higher (now 20) - it has modern computer electro-optical fire control system, with laser RF (now RF 8). It could be fitted with new APDS ammo, with increased penetration.
Radio code 1 - I'm afraid there is still less, than 10 vehicles.

203 Strela-2 Team - used from 1972 (1/68) [Polish Military Equpiment book] - might need date change in some formations. Polish name is Strzala-2M (Strela-2M eventually), used until now at least (say, until 115 - now: 104). Better rifle is AKMS (029)

204, 206 98mm Mortar /Plt - Beryl SMG hasn't been commissioned by regular units so far (only special forces) - should be ordinary Beryl rifle #28

205 Grom Team - there should be created two units. First was a transition missile Grom-I, produced from 1995 and used in small quantities from no earlier, than mid-95 (now 1/95). It should have radio code 3 or 1, but radio chance should be better. Rifle should be ordinary AKMS #29 (too early for Beryl). Might be used until 2000.

Specifications of #126 PPZR Grom SAM (which should be named Grom-I) should be no worse, than early Igla missiles (which have accuracy 118 - this one 90). Grom was basically a partly-licensed copy of Igla.

Final version is named just Grom and was introduced from 2001 [Raport 6/2000]. Radio code=90.
It should have a new weapon, with accuracy well above 120.
According to Polish official figures, final Grom is better, than basic Igla missiles (kill probability of a fighter 0.6 vs 0.45 in Igla/Igla-1 and 0.3 in Strela-3) [Raport 9/1999]. Ordinary Igla/Igla-1 in Russian oob have accuracy 118, Igla-N - 126, Igla-S - 150. Max range of Grom is 5500 m (same source).


213 PKMS MMG [2] - should be used until 120 - AKMS and PKMS rather won't be wiped out totally before 120 (now: 12/101)

214 12.7mm WKM HMG - as #96. It should be named just NSW HMG (better pic is common 11096).

Distinction between these two units (rifle only) doesn't make much sense, because AKMS was just an AKM with folding stock, adapted in late 60s, not in 1985...

Maybe 008 AKM Rifle should be renamed to AK Rifle (basic model AK-47, adopted in Poland in 1952), and 029 AKMS Rifle to AKM Rifle (adopted in 1965). Both have the same specifications in game terms, but AKM name in 1955 is anachronism. It would cover also folding stock versions (AKS and AKMS), without distinction.

If we rename weapon 008 AKM to AK, than both WKM HMG units should have later #29 rifle.

216 C Gustaf RCL (in-RR) - comments like unit #223 (dates OK, but it's a rare weapon - used only by special forces and, from 2001, airmobile forces). It doesn't belong to any formation in this period as for now. Maybe we don't need it, since we have such unit 223 Inf-AT.

224 M777 FH - fiction.

230 Ammo Truck - more proper picture is eg. 29168 Zil-133, not unfamiliar in Poland US truck.

231 Ammo Carrier - in fact, special armoured ammo carriers were never used in Poland, especially on MT-LB chassis (armoured ammo carriers for SP-guns weren't Soviet practice).

One of removed MTLBs (like units 407, 422) could be changed to mentioned before engineer's reconnaissance carrier TRI Hors, basing on MTLB. Proposed class 122 light support APC (one unit 922 uses this class, but should be removed).
Based upon MT-LB, armed with NSVT AAMG, SD (8 tubes), used from around 1983 until 2020, speed 60 km/h, carry 109. It should swim a bit faster, than MT-LB thanks to hydrojets. Picture: 29508.

It would need new formation, with a single vehicle.

There could be also possibly created ISM Kroton SP minelet launcher, basing upon MT-LB, used from some 2004 (in small number), picture: 29509 (if it's needed, I can provide more info).

Regards
Michal

[Marcello]

231 Ammo Carrier - in fact, special armoured ammo carriers were never used in Poland, especially on MT-LB chassis (armoured ammo carriers for SP-guns weren't Soviet practice).

No, but MT-LBs used as artillery tractors have racks for carrying ammunition internally (see an example here). So while there probably may not be dedicated armored ammunition carriers there are vehicles that could perform such task. From what I recall from past discussions it is an unit that some players feel to be rather useful, so if it can be kept around it might be worthwhile leaving it alone.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Marcello

No, but MT-LBs used as artillery tractors have racks for carrying ammunition internally (see an example here). So while there probably may not be dedicated armored ammunition carriers there are vehicles that could perform such task.

You're right, but they were first of all dedicated tractors for MT-12 100mm AT guns, while the Soviets didn't use special armoured ammo carriers for SP-artillery, as is the Western practice. Possibly MT-LB could be utilized this way, but it was rather not a rule.

As for Poland however, MT-LB was never used as an artillery tractor, so it wouldn't transport ammo as well. As I wrote before, basic MT-LBs they were put into use only as drivers' training vehicles, and several special variants were developed. Also a special ammo carrier for 2S1 guns, with higher compartment, was developed in late 80s, but it wasn't produced.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

There should be added new SP-AAgun Hibernyt-P - from 2008, with lightly armoured cab, platform (lower sides of gun mounting from sides and rear) and gun's front plate. Maybe armour 1/1/1/ 1/0/0/ 0 ?

...

engineer's reconnaissance carrier TRI Hors, basing on MTLB. Proposed class 122 light support APC (one unit 922 uses this class, but should be removed).
Based upon MT-LB, armed with NSVT AAMG, SD (8 tubes), used from around 1983 until 2020, speed 60 km/h, carry 109. It should swim a bit faster, than MT-LB thanks to hydrojets. Picture: 29508.

...

There could be also possibly created ISM Kroton SP minelet launcher, basing upon MT-LB, used from some 2004 (in small number), picture: 29509 (if it's needed, I can provide more info).

Some photos, so that we know what we're talking about:

Hibneryt-P
http://www.targikielce.pl/index.html...jnych_pancerze

TRI Hors
http://www.armyrecognition.com/polis...dentifica.html

ISM Kroton
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/produc...46&printmode=1