Polish OOB 5.5

[DRG]

Michal..... you need to go back and read all that was posted again and when you do you will discover that the only person saying.........

Originally Posted by Pibwl

that since Poland didn't use 500mm version, it's going to have 260mm (RPG-7) and 330mm (RPG-7V) ones.

.........was you. So you have misunderstood yourself

I said

....the stock "RPG-7" is represented as the 330mm penetration version in all OOB's

then you answered your own question by saying....

I thought so. But since Poland didn't use newer Soviet rounds, it could have 260mm and 330mm rounds separated (although it's a handicap comparing to other RPG-7 users

You won't find any post by me agreeing that the early version should be added and I explained why it was done the way it's been done and then YOU explained why it would be an unfair to do so but somehow you decided the early version was going to be added and why I wrote we have "a failure to communicate"


Don

[Pibwl]

Yes, it's RPK SAW used by paratrooops only.

Originally Posted by DRG

So you have misunderstood yourself

It seems so... That's why I wrote, that I had misunderstood.

Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Yes, it's RPK SAW used by paratrooops only.

OK, ALL weapon #12 7.62mm RPK SAW have now been removed from non para units and replaced by the PKM.

Does "para only " apply to the 5.45mm RPK SAW as well ?

Don

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

Does "para only " apply to the 5.45mm RPK SAW as well ?

Yes - and maybe some special forces.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Helicopters

114 Mi-4 - precise name of this variant was Mi-4A. Used from 1958 (some 6/58) until some 1985 at least (now: 62-78) (needs change of first date in formations nos. 43-44).
Normal load is 12 men, max 16 (now: 112) (unit 312 in Russian oob has 116).
All were armed with 12.7mm MG (TKB-481 aka A-12,7), not 7.62mm - it concerns all countries using MG-armed Mi-4 in the game. I suggest to use weapon #177 renamed simply "12.7mm MG" or "..TKB MG" (other units using this weapon in the Polish oob shouldn't use it, BTW)

115 Mi-4 Gunship - Poland used definitely no gunship Mi-4 armed with rockets.
Needs date change in formation 45 - Attack Helicopter should be available from 1973 (Mi-2URN - see farther)

116 SM-2 - wrong name - this is just Mi-2. SM-2 was different helicopter (worth to be added by the way).
According to A.Morgała's book, Mi-2 was used by the armed forces from 3/68 (now 1/66).

117 SM-2 / Malutka - correct name is Mi-2URP. Apart from 4 missiles it has fixed 23mm NS-23 gun (there's no such Class 19 gun in weapons now) and a pivot 7.62mm PKM machine gun (#35?). Actually it takes onboard some 8 missiles, but has to land to reload.
Used from some 1973 (first shown) until 2015 at least (actually, with a gap in 1990-1994) (now: 1/75-91). Although, in later period it should have radio 91 or 93 - used for combat training mainly. Carry would be no more than 4 (108).

Proposed units:
- Mi-2URN - data like #117, but armed with one 23mm NS-23, pivot 7.62mm PKM and 32 x 57mm rockets (2x16). It can be two weapons #189 2x57mm S-5K with 8 shots each including some AP, or 4x57mm S-5K could be created. Used in 1973- some 2015. I suggest to replace Mi-4 gunship with it.

BTW: why not just change weapon #190 4x 57mm S-5 to 4x 57mm S-5K with range 40 and Heat 13, like in Russian OOB?

- Mi-2URPG Gad - like #117, with additional armament of 4 Strela-2 AA missiles #125. Used in some 1987- some 2015.
There could be also URNG version with rockets and Strela.
There was also Mi-2US with single 23mm and 4 x 7.62mm MGS, but I think it's not very useful.


118 Mi-8 - more precise name is Mi-8T. Armed Mi-8T were apparently used only from around 1973 (now: 1/68 - correct date for unarmed ones). Used until now, probably until 120 (12/86).
Mi-8s doesn't carry MG by default and never carried machineguns in the Polish service. On the other hand, it carries as a standard 4x16 tube 57mm rockets, so their number should be doubled or they should be replaced with 4x57mm S-5K. Icon of armed variant should be 1910.
Armed variant probably couldn't take 32 soldiers, especially, that 24 is quoted as normal load, and 32 as overload (4 launchers UB-16 will weigh some 600 kg).

119, 121 Mi-8 / Falanga - Poland never used gunship Mi-8 armed with missiles. It should be replaced with plain unarmed transport variant (used 1968-120, icon 1913)

120 Mi-17 - Polish Mi-17s don't carry a machinegun (as for now at least - there are such ideas for Afghanistan, but if so, it will be 7.62mm pivot one).
Armament carried by Mi-17 as a standard is 192 rockets S-5K (6x32 tube) - could be three weapons 4x57mm S-5K with 16 shots each, or new weapons 8x57mm S-5K with 8 shots.

122 W-3 Sokol - precisely, W-3T Sokol - plain transport variant used by the air force since 7/93 (transport ones were used by the navy since 7/89, but they were few and rather wouldn't operate for land units) (now: 1/89).

123 W-3WA Sokol - it should be available from 5/94 (now: 9/100) (to be precise, W-3W variant was delivered from 5/94, and slightly modified W-3WA was delivered only from mid-1996, but it's more numerous). According to Polish sources, 10 soldiers only can be carried apart from 2-men crew (now crew=3, carry=113) - there are 10 seats [Aeroplan no.5-6/04]. It shouldn't be Attack Helicopter, just an airmobile cavalry mean of transport.

There should be probably more gun ammo - it has 250 rounds (now: 4). It can carry only 20 rockets 80mm (now: 40) in 2x10 launchers (according to a quoted source and photos, they are carried only on two inner hardpoints). In addition to rockets, it can carry only tubes for HE cluster bomblets or minelets on outer hardpoints (little use in the game?) and 7.62mm pivot PKM MG in a window.
4x Strela missiles can be carried only instead of rockets on inner hardpoints, in addition to bomblets (there could be also mixed asymetrical variant of 2x Strela and 10 x 80mm rockets, in addition to bomblets). A photo showing weapons: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...05,_Poland.jpg

It has no special FC system (now: 15) - unit 428 has FC=4. It has no armour at all.
Radio should be 90 or 92 (now: 91) - most common helicopter at the moment.



124 Mi-24D - as a standard it can carry 4 missiles and 128 rockets S-5K (4x32) (now it carries only 32) (Mi-24D in a Russian oob also has too low number of rockets - 64. They are almost always seen with 4x32 tube launchers, sometimes with missiles as well). Used probably until 120 (12/106).

125 Mi-24W - most probably Polish Mi-24s don't carry 80mm rockets at all, I don't recall such photos and Polish Military Equipment book lists only 57mm. So, as a standard it carries only 4 missiles (now 8) and 128 rockets 57mm (now 40 rockets 80mm). Otherwise, 4 missiles and 80 rockets 80mm. Used until 120 (12/106).

126 MI-24PL Pluszcz - despite many talks on Pluszcz program, Polish Mi-24s didn't underwent any significant modernization eventually and plans were abandoned.

356-358 MI-24PL Pluszcz - as above.

One of them could be replaced with cheaper Mi-24D support configuration without AT missiles, only with 128 x 57mm rockets (AT missiles rather aren't useful for Iraq mission).

424 SM-1 - according to Polish sources, withdrawn by 1983 (now: 12/87) (needs change in formation #95). Max speed was only 185km/h (61 instead of 76) - for Mi-1 in all countries.

Proposed unit: SM-2 (correct one) - like SM-1, but carry=104, available 1961-79, speed=57 (170km/h), pic=29161.

428 W-3W Sokol - gun and pivot MG-armed variant, comments like #123 W-3WA Sokol (crew=2, carry=110, more gun ammo?, no armour). It rather shouldn't be Attack Helicopter, just an airmobile cavalry mean of transport. To be precise, first date of giving to units is 12 May 1994 (4/94).

667 W-3 Sokol - transport variant with pivot MGs - but there's no evidence, that plain transport Sokols (not numerous, anyway) can carry MGs at all (they had no opening windows, unlike W-3W). Other comments like #122 W-3T Sokol.

668 W-3 Sokol - as #667, with newer pivot MGs. Apart from doubtful existence of plain transport Sokols with MGs, it doesn't make much sense, since basic transport helicopters in this period should be armed W-3W.

960 W-3W Sokol - doubled entry of #428?

961 W-3W Sokol - variant with 23mm gun, 57mm rockets and pivot MGs. 57mm rockets are less efficient, than 80mm, but such configuration is used. Other comments like #123 W-3WA Sokol (it also can carry HE bomblets).

962 SW-3W Gluszec - proper name is W-3PL Gluszec [source Raport 9/2007]. Used from late 2008 at best (now 4/107) [source nTW 5/2008]. Can carry 64 rockets 57 mm (4x16) (now: 32), and pivot MGs.
Better option is 40x 80mm S-8 rockets (4x10) (it can replace one of redundant W-3s).
There is also known mixed configuration with 32 x 57mm and 20 x 80mm. It can be also armed with Western 70mm rockets in 4x 7-rocket launchers, but probably they haven't been commissioned in Poland so far.
(My photo of Gluszec weapons: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...c_PICT0134.JPG )
It is also supposed to be transport and support helicopter, not attack one. In this Sokol variant, light armour is correct.

963, 964 SW-3W Huzar - if Spike missiles will be integrated with W-3 (there are such plans), it will be around 2014 (now: 107) and it will be still W-3PL Gluszec (W-3W Huzar was a prototype from late 90s.)

965 EH-101 - fiction, especially from 2006.

966 SW-4 - introduced in 1/2007 (precisely, 12/06) (now: 1/105). Crew should be 1 and carry 4 (now: 2 and 3). It has no formation as for now (Light Helicopter). Might be named SW-4 Puszczyk (...name looks horribly, isn't it?).

967 Mi-2 Kania - modernization of Mi-2, never used by the army - only Polish Border Guard (I can check, from when).

968 Mi-14 - it's nice, but I don't think that such unit is useful - it's naval anti-sub or SAR helicopter. Anyway, it was used since 6/81 and carries no gun - only torpedoes and depth charges

970 SH-2 Sea Sprite - another nice unit, but of not much use - naval deck A/S helicopter. Their only anti-ground armament is 7.62 mm PK MG, but it was fitted only during a modernization in 2007. They don't carry rockets and are not supposed to do so in the future. Not an "Attack helicopter" definitely. It could probably take 1-2 persons more in sonar operator's cab, but not 8 nor much cargo (108).

I think that's all I've collected on helicopters at the moment...

Michal

[Pibwl]

Supplements and corrections of previous info (well, the research still goes on. I've just bought a new book)


025 SU-100 - according to a new source, 23 were bought in 1951-52. Still not a big number - radio code 1?

027 JSU-152 (ISU-152) - standard load was 10 AP, 10 HE (no Heat)

041 BTR-40A - in a new book by J. Kajetanowicz on the Polish land army 1945-60, there's no sign of such variant as well.

048 SA-3 Goa - I wrote: "Quadruple launchers appeared with S-125M Newa, from mid-70s only (probably 1973)" - according to an author on the quoted pages on AA missiles (retired officer), from 1974. Before that date, twin launchers were used.

056 BTR-152 - it appears, that first few were bought in 1951, but still first significant batches were bought in 1955 only (as I've written, there were only 6 in 12/54). IMO should be available from 1955.

068 B10 Recoilless (inf-RR) - start date at 1/55, as I suggested, seems close to reality.

078 57mm AT-Gun (1965-96) - should be removed in this period indeed, considered obsolete yet in 1950s. Even if they were stored, it's not a real option then.

082 85mm AT-Gun - possibly it was used from 1954, as I've written, but in 1/56 there were only 2 guns. Realistic start date is mid-56 (now 1/55) - a production in Poland started in 1955, so they quickly began to appear.

084 M1944 100mm ATG - starting date should be 1/51 (1947 quoted before referred in fact to period 1947-50, when they were bought)

086 ZPU-2 AAMG - used from some 1/55 only (now 1/50)

098, 99 Para Squad (50-54, 55-68) - in fact, Poland created first paratroop unit (6th Paratroop Division) in 6/59 only! (realistic date of readiness - some 1/60). Before that date, some paratroop scouts or special units could be used, but not as regular troops.
In fact it appears, that small numbers of P-27 Pancerovka were actually used - but for a short time only, so they should be replaced with more common RPG-2 anyway, used at the same time and finally chosen as a standard.

370 PTRD ATR Team - it appears, that theoretically they were withdrawn, but in practice still used until some 1952 (now 12/49). Other thing, that it was totally inefficient by then.

372 RPG-2 Team - could be even made as early, as mid-52.

373 SPG-82 RR - still there's no sign of usage (while the book mentions even small number of T-21 Tarasnice)

379 Anti-Tank Team (1946-55) - still no info on RKG-3 grenades, but also RPG-6 with pen 100mm were used (picture 00351), and from some 1957, RPG-57 with pen=140.

702 Marynarka PT-76 - better date of withdrawal is 12/95 - just as Topas APC mentioned before (last units using them were disbanded in 1994 - with safe margin, 1995).

Michal

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

379 Anti-Tank Team (1946-55) - still no info on RKG-3 grenades, but also RPG-6 with pen 100mm were used (picture 00351), and from some 1957, RPG-57 with pen=140.

By writing this, I don't mean to add an improved AT grenade from 1957, when better RPG-2 was already widespread. Only a basic AT grenade should have penetration 8-10 (RPG-43 or RPG-6).

Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Helicopters

BTW: why not just change weapon #190 4x 57mm S-5 to 4x 57mm S-5K with range 40 and Heat 13, like in Russian OOB?

Already done last October and as well all Helicopters and aircraft were checked in all OOB's that use those type of rockets in the game to ensure the helo types are only used by helos and aircraft types are only used by aircraft and that aircraft only have "HE" ammo and that Helos have "AP" or HEAT rounds if applicable.

Off map aircraft do not use AP ammo as "AP". "AP" is the number of guns in an aicraft Unit Class so off map aircraft rockets that have HEAT warheads have a HE Pen rating while on map helicopter rockets are free to use AP ammo as HEAT and are set up with HEAT pen ratings and that was actually one of the first projects completed


Don

[Pibwl]

Time for the aircraft

127 Yak-3 - should be removed IMO. Yak-3 were pure fighters, very scarce in Poland (no more than 20), and all withdrawn by the end of 1946. It should carry no bombs - now it has 24

It can be changed to anti-tank Jak-9T with 1x 37 mm N-37 gun (#184) and 1x 12.7mm UBS (#175), no bombs, used until 1951 (Polish - also Czech, German, Hungarian spelling is Jak).

128 Yak-9M - it was armed in fact with 1x 20 mm and 1x 12.7mm UBS, not 2 x 20mm.

Despite Russian sources on Yak-9 don't say explicitly, that it couldn't carry bombs, but they describe gun armament only and don't suggest any possibility, that it could carry bombs (apart from very rare Yak-9B fighter-bomber variant, which was unique in that way, that it carried bombs vertically in a bomb bay). There are also no photos of Yak-9 with bombs. Certainly it was not common use. So it seems, that they shouldn't have bombs at all in the game, unless there is a source, that some user modified them this way. In Russia, it was Il-2/Il-10 aircraft to carry out ground attack, not fighters (not counting strafing - including 37 mm gun-armed fighters)

129 Yak-9W - in fact, Jak-9W (Yak-9V) was a two-seater trainer with reduced armament (1x20mm), no bombs and speed 5-6.
It might be changed to Jak-9P with 1x 20 mm Shvak #180 and 2x 12.7mm UBS, no bombs, speed=7 (8), available from 11/47 to 1954, drawing 29118. Anyway, this would be strafing aircraft only, little useful.

130 Yak-23 - Polish spelling: Jak-23. They carried 2x 60 kg bombs, not 25 kg.
Weapon #193 should be changed to 60 kg (it's the only user) - or #194 50kg bomb could be just renamed or slightly upgraded (it shouldn't be used by propeller Yaks, mentioned above)
In fact, operationally used from mid-51 (1/51)

131 MiG-15 - MiG-15s didn't carry obsolete RS-82 rockets, nor any other rockets in the Polish service. Could be armed with two bombs 100 kg - otherwise a new bomb-armed unit should be created. Used from mid-51 (1/50)

132 MiG-17 - MiG-17s didn't carry obsolete RS-82 rockets. Could be armed with two bombs 250 kg. It should be in fact named Lim-5 - Polish licensed MiG-17F (Poland probably didn't use original Soviet-built MiG-17s, or they were a small number). Produced in Poland from 11/1956 (realistic date: 1/57) (now: 1/55).

133 MiG-17F - same as above as for RS-82, name and date. This unit is therefore IMO redundant. (BTW, not used with camouflage, and used not later, than unit above - now 12/98)

134 MiG-17bis - there didn't exist MiG-17bis variant at all. Judging from 3x23mm guns, it is radar-equipped MiG-17PF. But standard MiG-17 fighters didn't use rockets in Polish service. IMO redundant unit.

135 MiG-17PF - bombs could be changed to 250 kg, but this unit is redundant, if we change standard MiG-17F (eg. #132) to bomb-armed variant (MiG-17F has stronger gun armament and is available earlier).
If we keep it, in fact, it should be named Lim-5P, available from 1959 (1/71) and end in 1970s (now 12/88). Later most fighters were converted to ground attack Lim-6bis/6M.

To end a subject of MiG-15/17:
685 Lim-1 - license produced MiG-15, strafing unit only. IMO redundant as a strafer.

IMO it should be armed with 2x100 kg bombs, and be available alongside #131 MiG-15 - Lim name is more strongly associated with the Polish airforce of the 1950s. But it should be in fact available from 1/53 (now 1/50)

686 Lim-1A - sources don't mention "A" variant (I don't know why it's supposed to have better vision). RS-82 rockets weren't used. To be removed IMO.

687 Lim-2 - licensed MiG-15bis. RS-82 rockets weren't used. Could be armed with 2x100kg bombs, to keep Lim-2 name in the game, but it's in fact redundant (should be used from 10/54 - now 1/54)

688 Lim-2A - sources don't mention "A" variant (I don't know why it's supposed to have better vision). RS-82 rockets weren't used. To be removed IMO.

689 Lim-5 - RS-82 rockets weren't used, only 2x250kg bombs. It is redundant, if we rename #132 MiG-17 this way.

690 Lim-5M - first trial of creating a ground attack variant, but used from 1/61 (1/60) until around end of 60s (now 12/84) - later converted to Lim-6bis. Better picture is 29113 - without camo.

691 Lim-6bis - basic light attack plane of that time - radio should be 90 (91). A number of rockets should be doubled - it carried 2x16 rockets S-5 plus 2x250kg bombs (8-rocket launchers weren't even used). Better picture is 29112 and icon 2809 - camouflaged ones.

692 Lim-6M - in fact, Lim-6M should be armed with 3x23mm guns, so it's better IMO to keep its gun armament (1x37, 2x23) and rename it to Lim-6bis (Lim-6M, differing in weaker gun armament only, appeared several years after Lim-6bis - 1971/72). Picture and icon - as above.
However, variant differing only with lighter bombs from the above one doesn't make much sense. It could be armed with 2x250kg and 2x100kg bombs instead.
There was probably a possibility of arming it with 64 rockets (4x16), but it's unseen on photos.

We could also add a cheap variant of Lim-6bis, with 32 rockets only (and drop tanks), without bombs.

End of part 1

Michal