Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

[Shangrila00]

Okay, this is not really a CBM issue, but I figure CBM might as well fix it. Why does Mictlan's starting army have map move 1 but otherwise identical versions of its armored warriors that it can't even recruit? Is it supposed to be that way for some obscure reason of balance? I didn't see it on the bug list, but surely someone must have noticed before.

[Shangrila00]

Originally Posted by kianduatha

Okay, there are two problems; One is that growth is too powerful at the moment. Granted. There are two ways to make that disappear: revert the changes and make it 3% income/0.2% growth, or make it 1% income/0.3% growth. The second is that scales in general are too powerful it seems, particularly Turmoil/Prod/Growth/Luck. How much of that is due to Growth being too awesome? If Growth is taken down a notch, will that still be overpowering Order/Misfortune?

Okay, this is coming a little late since I didn't watch this thread, but...

I disagree strongly. The shift of growth from direct income boost to later income boost is only a positive thing in the absense of popkilling effects, which is only reasonably certain in single player. As it is, CBM growth only breaks even with vanilla growth on turn 20. Income early is better than income later, not only for reasons of expansion and the increasing obsolescence of recruitable troops, but because the later the income comes, the more likely it ends up never coming due to war, poploss events, or various means of attacking population. CBM has made Volcanic Eruption only cost 5 gems, btw. Certainly, your suggested turmoil/production/growth build is not conducive to actually benefiting from the new growth thanks to all the popkill events opened up by turmoil, which will hit even with luck 3.

Taking growth is a gamble, that you'll be able to keep your population long enough to benefit, as it should be. But it shouldn't be a terrible gamble. With your suggested nerf of growth to only 1% income per tick, it won't break even with vanilla growth until turn 38. I suggest that makes growth a terrible gamble. And it nerfs those nations with no choice but to take growth thanks to old mages.

[Nightfall]

Originally Posted by Shangrila00

As it is, CBM growth only breaks even with vanilla growth on turn 20.

Not sure what your talking about, since vanilla growth is 2%/.2%, CBM growth is flat out superior at the moment.

Adjusting growth from it's current point gives you a range of options, depending on what you want to achieve, for example.

Drop to 1%/.3%, income inferior to current CBM breaks even with vanilla growth around turn 23.
Change to 0%/.35%, income breaks even with vanilla around turn 29 and current CBM about turn 73.
Change to 0%/.4%, income breaks even with vanilla around turn 23 and current CBM about turn 40.

I also think the current production/sloth needs to be toned down to +-3% income, sloth is almost unpickable at the moment.

[Shangrila00]

My mistake. Too used to the older and less controversial CBMs. Certainly, if the latest CBM supposedly makes scales too good, while earlier ones didn't, it needs to be compared with earlier CBMs.

And no, I still disagree. Production should not be a dump stat, and neither should growth, which is the whole point of the CBM changes in the first place. Having resource cheap, yet effective units is an advantage, but it should not be worth hundreds of points, and neither should having good, non-old mages. Some nations, Mictlan, Ry'leh, etc still pick sloth 3 and are not even close to being underpowered. For other nations to have to think before choosing sloth is a good thing. I mean, really? Sloth is unpickable? I guess nobody ever picked a temperature preference other than their prefered, since that's so much worse?

[rdonj]

Yeah, temperature hurts, but it's still the first thing I dump... sloth is hardly unpickable now, it's still easier to take than losing order is in many cases. You just are going to think hard before going sloth 3 now. Having to think is the entire point.

[Nightfall]

Originally Posted by Shangrila00

Sloth is unpickable? I guess nobody ever picked a temperature preference other than their prefered, since that's so much worse?

And your wrong again, because of the way summer and winter work, a 0 preference nation that takes temperature 0 still loses between 1.5% and 3% average income per turn; higher dominion scores lose less.

Again, due to summer and winter, a 0 preference nation _actually_ loses between 12% and 13.5% average income per turn when they pick Heat or Cold 3; higher dominion scores lose more.

This makes the real income loss suffered between 9% and 12% for taking a temperature scale at 3.

So, in all cases other than dom 10, which is about equal, in the current CBM, picking sloth 3 is a worse hit to your income than taking a temperature 3 pick.

So yes, sloth is almost unpickable in CBM at the moment, and this is seriously hurting the low resource nations, since they still have to deal with the down side of being low resource, no decent armoured troops.

[Shangrila00]

Originally Posted by Nightfall

And your wrong again, because of the way summer and winter work, a 0 preference nation that takes temperature 0 still loses between 1.5% and 3% average income per turn; higher dominion scores lose less.

Again, due to summer and winter, a 0 preference nation _actually_ loses between 12% and 13.5% average income per turn when they pick Heat or Cold 3; higher dominion scores lose more.

This makes the real income loss suffered between 9% and 12% for taking a temperature scale at 3.

So, in all cases other than dom 10, which is about equal, in the current CBM, picking sloth 3 is a worse hit to your income than taking a temperature 3 pick.

So yes, sloth is almost unpickable in CBM at the moment, and this is seriously hurting the low resource nations, since they still have to deal with the down side of being low resource, no decent armoured troops.

So I guess people never, ever take non-prefered, and nonextreme temp scales, right? Even extreme temp with its corresponding encumbrance issue is so close as to be no difference, yet somehow you think it's a crushing argument for sloth being unpickable, despite temp being picked all the time.

And I'm sorry, you don't get to turn an advantage on its head like that. Having decent low resource troops is an advantage. Some of them also have decent armored troops, which they can choose not to use to maximize that advantage. Again, needing to think before deciding is a good thing. Mictlan doesn't need to think, since its armored troops are crap. I'm trying to see the downside there, but it's just not hitting me.

Originally Posted by Valerius

As per kianduatha's point earlier I think it may be more of an issue in the opposite direction - turmoil/production/luck to get the benefits of luck but also have prod offset most of the income hit form turmoil (and the bonus to resources is nice because you can ramp up your forces quickly when needed). Kianduatha also mentioned growth in that comment, but I think even without growth this should work out favorably.

It doesn't, unless you 1)take a very high dom, and 2) don't take turmoil beyond 1. Unlike Order which gain you most of its benefits just on your cap, luck only works out if it's everywhere, besides the chance at heros. And you can't offset more than turmoil 1 with production because of all the awful poploss events opened up by turmoil 2. Unless you can fortuneteller all your high pop provinces at low cost, which would be a national advantage.

High turmoil is a still a viable build of course, more so than it was before, for nations with low gold requirements, but there's no sense in pretending it's viable with the boosted production for gold hungry nations. Certainly, Pan still has to think long and hard before taking turmoil.

[kianduatha]

Originally Posted by Nightfall

So yes, sloth is almost unpickable in CBM at the moment, and this is seriously hurting the low resource nations, since they still have to deal with the down side of being low resource, no decent armoured troops.

This is very nice feedback, but it seems rather abstract. Could you tell us which nations in specific you are thinking of?